# Criminals who got what they deserved...or precious snowflakes tragically murdered? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 26, 2012, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209 "2012-11-26T22:45:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2012, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/341 "2012-11-30T17:55:04Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > You seem to be having trouble with “live criminal so helpless old guy can walk up and shoot her under the chin = no longer dangerous,” though. I might not have felt she was a danger anymore but i am not comfortable making that call for anyone else. I don’t think a homeowner should ever have to take any risk for themselves their family or their property in order to spare the life of a criminal in the process of committing a crime. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2012, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/342 "2012-11-30T17:55:33Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Do try to keep up. I was agreeing with you that you believe yourself to be better than others. You said so yourself, and how could I possibly know otherwise? Just taking you at your word, dude. _Were_ you lying? > > Incidentally, you were the one who, rather awkwardly, tried to pull a fast one by twisting the conversation through this gambit: > _Not feeling sad at the murder of two criminals by a third criminal = not thinking coldblooded murder is wrong_ > Thereby setting the stage to make everybody who doesn’t have the right feelings i.e the same as yours into a supporter of coldblooded murder. Clumsily done, I must say. If you aren’t going to respond in an honest manner to what I actually write, and instead twist my words so that you can make a canned response, I see no reason to further converse with you. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2012, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/343 "2012-11-30T17:56:36Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > If you aren’t going to respond in an honest manner to what I actually write, and instead twist my words so that you can make a canned response, I see no reason to further converse with you. I told you upthread that once we got into discussion of what is or isn’t the appropriate emotional response that this wouldn’t go well. You tried to pull a fast one, I didn’t play into it and now you are butthurt. If you don’t want to respond to me, I couldn’t do anything about it if I wanted to. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2012, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/344 "2012-11-30T17:56:57Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > I know that, as I said above, the old dude in question had a presumption initially that his life was threatened by the unknown persons in his home. Once he removed their capability to threaten him, then I know for a fact that there is no threat to his life. He removed their capability and then he killed them. Care to take a wild guess what such a killing is called? Er, see the post I made immediately before the one you responded to, helpfully reprinted here: > [@Zeriel](#): > > The Crazy Old Man’s initial shot at each intruder was 100% justified; it was when he set himself up as judge and executioner over a crippled assailant rather than allow society’s justice to take over that he became as much or more of a menace than the thieves. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2012, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/345 "2012-11-30T17:58:01Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > I might not have felt she was a danger anymore but i am not comfortable making that call for anyone else. I don’t think a homeowner should ever have to take any risk for themselves their family or their property in order to spare the life of a criminal in the process of committing a crime. Fortunately we live in a land of laws, so your personal beliefs about ultimate penalties for all who dare encroach upon your domain will not matter in the end. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2012, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/346 "2012-11-30T17:58:06Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > Or maybe he still feared for his life. Shooting to disable is the most cartoonish action movie crap suggestion possible. If there is an intruder in your house and they are still alive your life is in danger. Bullshit. When an attacker is down and immobile, there is no more danger. If you can get close enough to \*\*execute \*\*him, he’s not enough of a threat to justify lethal force. The fact he didn’t call the police immediately and himself is quite enough icing on the murder cake for me to want him locked up. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2012, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/347 "2012-11-30T18:02:34Z")
If he is capable of cold-blooded murder, he is certainly capable of lying about the circumstances that led to that cold-blooded murder, so it surprises me that some are willing to support his actions based only on the murderer’s story instead of any actual forthcoming evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2012, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/348 "2012-11-30T18:03:39Z")
Lawful gun owners never lie. Have we learned nothing from the Zimmerman-Martin case? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2012, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/349 "2012-11-30T18:04:25Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > I might not have felt she was a danger anymore but i am not comfortable making that call for anyone else. I don’t think a homeowner should ever have to take any risk for themselves their family or their property in order to spare the life of a criminal in the process of committing a crime. Neither do I. A person who you shot and is lying on the floor helpless, however, is _no longer committing a crime_. As a general matter, I think there should be a strong presumption that people who shoot intruders in their own homes are defending themselves. It’s very hard to say with any certainty that such-and-such person isn’t a threat when you encounter them on the stairs in the middle of the night. At the same time, when the evidence is clear that a person \*isn’t \*a threat - such as an intruder you already shot, and obviously disabled - that presumption no longer applies. This isn’t one of those “he said, she said” situations, where the crim says he was running away and the homeowner says he was coming at him with a knife. It’s one where the homeowner’s own words make it clear that he is a murderer\*. \*making certain assumptions, like the old guy being in full possession of his faculties when he confessed, not being coerced by the police, and so on. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2012, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/350 "2012-11-30T18:17:02Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > Lawful gun owners never lie. Have we learned nothing from the Zimmerman-Martin case? It’s too bad OJ had to live under a cloud of suspicion for 20 years when he could have just invoked a “stand your ground” self defense justification. Then we would _have_ to give him the benefit of the doubt. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2012, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/351 "2012-11-30T18:38:45Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > They were burglars. They got shot. Case closed. Didn’t you used to be a cop? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2012, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/352 "2012-11-30T18:44:31Z")
Is there evidence that there was a burglary taking place? ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2012, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/353 "2012-11-30T19:24:05Z")
Other than the stolen property in their car and the fact that they were in someone’s house uninvited? Is there a standard of evidence for Burglary that amounts to much more than the second part of that sentence? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2012, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/354 "2012-11-30T19:27:13Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Other than the stolen property in their car and the fact that they were in someone’s house uninvited? Is there a standard of evidence for Burglary that amounts to much more than the second part of that sentence? And the information that they were uninvited comes from…? ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2012, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/355 "2012-11-30T19:32:21Z")
And the idea that they might have been invited in comes from??? ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2012, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/356 "2012-11-30T19:33:16Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > And the idea that they might have been invited in comes from??? A sense of moral superiority? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2012, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/357 "2012-11-30T19:39:13Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > And the idea that they might have been invited in comes from??? That it was indicated that he thought that they had previously broken into his home. It’s not that far a step from cold blooded murder to luring them in for the purpose of cold blooded murder. That’s why I ask if there was physical evidence that they broke in uninvited. If so, then my question is answered. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2012, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/358 "2012-12-02T15:16:24Z")
As I watch Doomsday Preppers on the National Geographic Channel, I can’t help but speculate that everyone of those paranoid nutcases would have done the exact same thing as that old man. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2012, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/359 "2012-12-02T20:34:13Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > That it was indicated that he thought that they had previously broken into his home. It’s not that far a step from cold blooded murder to luring them in for the purpose of cold blooded murder. That’s why I ask if there was physical evidence that they broke in uninvited. If so, then my question is answered. Particularly since he said he shot them when he could only see them from the waist down–according to his story, he had no idea who they were (before he shot them the first time). ---
**Author:** ![Snow\_Pea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Snow\_Pea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snow_Pea)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2012, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/360 "2012-12-02T21:34:32Z")
A new story on this case contains a very bizarre quote: [http://brainerddispatch.com/news/2012-11-30/little-falls-shooting-tragic-situation](http://brainerddispatch.com/news/2012-11-30/little-falls-shooting-tragic-situation) _ **“Jones talked about the shooting and how it affected students at the high school — many of whom can’t help but imagine themselves in the same circumstances.”** _ Um, whaat? “Many” of the students “can’t help but imagine” themselves breaking into people’s homes and getting shot? 😕 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209.md?page=19)