# Criminals who got what they deserved...or precious snowflakes tragically murdered? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 26, 2012, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209 "2012-11-26T22:45:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/41 "2012-11-27T03:02:33Z")
> [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > This is a disgusting thing to say. Society would actually be better off if people who expressed these kinds of awful sentiments weren’t around. But I wouldn’t wish death on them, because that’s sick. “I don’t wish you were dead! I just wish you weren’t _alive_ anymore!” How’s the view from that moral high ground? ---
**Author:** ![Snow\_Pea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Snow\_Pea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snow_Pea)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/42 "2012-11-27T03:35:50Z")
> [@Speaker\_for\_the\_Dead](#): > > Yeah, I don’t see that. **Snow Pea** , were you just guessing when you suggested the second girl was “hopped up”? Yes, a theory. I must say though that your username in this case is somewhat unsettling. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![miss\_elizabeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@miss\_elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miss_elizabeth)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/43 "2012-11-27T03:40:48Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > “I don’t wish you were dead! I just wish you weren’t _alive_ anymore!” > > How’s the view from that moral high ground? Don’t act like a moron. There’s a vast array of options available between “alive, and an asshole” and “dead”. Maybe I wish they’d never been conceived, and would therefore never live nor suffer in any way. Maybe I wish they existed, but weren’t total jerks. Maybe a million other options. Use some creativity and intelligence, if you’re capable. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/44 "2012-11-27T03:46:33Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > This is pretty much an urban legend. It has been amply demonstrated by this point that **Saint Cad** almost never knows what he’s talking about. The only real question is why anybody engages him. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/45 "2012-11-27T03:51:50Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > They didn’t get what they deserved. I would say this is murder, I doubt you can lie in wait for someone to attack you and claim the castle defense, but maybe in that state you can. I don’t see a problem with that. That would seem to actually be a point in Smith’s favor - he wasn’t “hunting” the intruders but instead went to his basement. That arguably shows he was trying to avoid a confrontation. But I agree that Smith went too far. Maybe with Brady and almost certainly with Kifer. The first shots appear to be justifiable as self-defense. But it appears Smith shot them again after they were incapacitated and were no longer reasonable dangers to him. ---
**Author:** ![Snow\_Pea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Snow\_Pea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snow_Pea)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/46 "2012-11-27T03:58:36Z")
I just can’t imagine any scenario where a not-on-drugs, sober person would stay in that house upon hearing the huge booming gunshots from the basement where your cousin just went. While you both were burglarizing the house. I’m picturing this scenario and there is simply no way I’d go down there, no matter how much I loved my bro. I’d run like hell outta there and and call 911. So IMHO, she either was totally messed up on drugs, or she was confident that her cousin was the shooter and she was safe. ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/47 "2012-11-27T03:59:58Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I don’t see a problem with that. That would seem to actually be a point in Smith’s favor - he wasn’t “hunting” the intruders but instead went to his basement. That arguably shows he was trying to avoid a confrontation. > > But I agree that Smith went too far. Maybe with Brady and almost certainly with Kifer. The first shots appear to be justifiable as self-defense. But it appears Smith shot them again after they were incapacitated and were no longer reasonable dangers to him. And presumably it’s relevant in some way that (according to the text account posted upthread at least) that he left the bodies on a tarp in his basement for 24 hours before calling the police. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/48 "2012-11-27T04:00:27Z")
There is the problem that Smith is the only available witness. So we can’t tell everything that went down. But he did admit to murder by shooting the girl after she was already down. I don’t know if that makes his story more credible or not. It’s a tough one all around. ---
**Author:** ![Snow\_Pea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Snow\_Pea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snow_Pea)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/49 "2012-11-27T04:01:24Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I don’t see a problem with that. That would seem to actually be a point in Smith’s favor - he wasn’t “hunting” the intruders but instead went to his basement. That arguably shows he was trying to avoid a confrontation. Actually, news reports are that he was in his basement workshop, puttering around with hobbies or whatever, when the home invasion happened. He was already down there and stayed down there, only firing when the intruders came down the basement stairs. ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/50 "2012-11-27T04:04:46Z")
> [@Snow\_Pea](#): > > I’m picturing this scenario and there is simply no way I’d go down there, no matter how much I loved my bro. I’d run like hell outta there and and call 911. So IMHO, she either was totally messed up on drugs, or she was confident that her cousin was the shooter and she was safe. Since they were apparently unarmed, why would she be “confident” that her cousin was the shooter? ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/51 "2012-11-27T04:04:59Z")
I am checking my outrage until more facts (FACTS) are known. The girl supposedly LAUGHED at the shooter after being shot at point blank range AND tumbling down the stairs?! Uh, yeea. Not likely. Who knows what else is suspect in this story? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/52 "2012-11-27T04:05:40Z")
> [@Snow\_Pea](#): > > Actually, news reports are that he was in his basement workshop, puttering around with hobbies or whatever, when the home invasion happened. He was already down there and stayed down there, only firing when the intruders came down the basement stairs. That kind of speaks in his favor, if true. It’s possible he may have been truly afraid, and snapped after the initial shooting. Perhaps the girl laughing at him sent him over the edge. In some karmic way perhaps those kids did deserve what they got, and still managed to ruin this man’s life also. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/53 "2012-11-27T04:07:29Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > I am checking my outrage until more facts (FACTS) are known. The girl supposedly LAUGHED at the shooter after being shot at point blank range AND tumbling down the stairs?! Uh, yeea. Not likely. Who knows what else is suspect in this story? Well all we have is his testimony. I find all of it suspect to some degree. For instance if he’s admitted to murder in the end, what else might he have covered up? ---
**Author:** ![Snow\_Pea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Snow\_Pea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snow_Pea)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/54 "2012-11-27T04:13:12Z")
> [@PaulParkhead](#): > > Since they were apparently unarmed, why would she be “confident” that her cousin was the shooter? My totally unsupported theory is simply that she may have gone down the basement stairs because she thought that her accomplice WAS armed and that the gunshots killed the homeowner, not the other way around. Barring that, would any reasonable person go down those stairs, knowing there was a person waiting with a loaded gun, rather than flee? ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/55 "2012-11-27T04:21:22Z")
> [@Snow\_Pea](#): > > My totally unsupported theory is simply that she may have gone down the basement stairs because she thought that her accomplice WAS armed and that the gunshots killed the homeowner, not the other way around. > > Barring that, would any reasonable person go down those stairs, knowing there was a person waiting with a loaded gun, rather than flee? Well, I dunno. As has been noted already, we appear only to have the homeowners remarks to go on, and he’s already confessed to murder. Maybe cousin had said “hell, no worries, I got a gun” when he actually didn’t, but that’s really reaching. And truth be told, I really don’t know how I’d react if I thought someone had just shot a person I loved, even if we _were_ in the process of carrying out a burglary. Still, this story seems weird, so I guess I need to accept that there must be more to it than meets the eye. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/56 "2012-11-27T04:26:13Z")
> [@PaulParkhead](#): > > Well, I dunno. As has been noted already, we appear only to have the homeowners remarks to go on, and he’s already confessed to murder. **Maybe cousin had said “hell, no worries, I got a gun” when he actually didn’t,** but that’s really reaching. And truth be told, I really don’t know how I’d react if I thought someone had just shot a person I loved, even if we _were_ in the process of carrying out a burglary. > > Still, this story seems weird, so I guess I need to accept that there must be more to it than meets the eye. Even if he did have a gun, the shooter confessed that he shot both of them when he could only see them from the waist down (which is all kinds of creepy all on its own… he fired, without announcing himself, when he had no idea who was coming down the stairs). ---
**Author:** ![Snow\_Pea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Snow\_Pea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snow_Pea)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/57 "2012-11-27T04:27:58Z")
> [@PaulParkhead](#): > > And truth be told, I really don’t know how I’d react if I thought someone had just shot a person I loved, even if we _were_ in the process of carrying out a burglary. So, really, you would walk down those steps instead of running to call 911? 😕 What could you do down there, besides also getting shot, that would be better than getting emergency help asap? ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Colossus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.colossus/32/9423_2.png) [@Dr.Colossus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Colossus)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/58 "2012-11-27T04:32:03Z")
> [@Snow\_Pea](#): > > So, really, you would walk down those steps instead of running to call 911? 😕 What could you do down there, besides also getting shot, that would be better than getting emergency help asap? this is the problem with taking a recent snippet of a story and arm-chair quarterbacking it. you have the luxury of a lot of variable aspects, \*\*all based on speculation. \*\* while the story is interesting and very screwed up, there’s probably going to be new details that make it all make a little more sense at some point. perhaps he knew who these kids were. perhaps he was totally convinced they were the people who broke in before and he’d been seething, waiting for this moment. perhaps the kids were totally convinced no one was in the building, so the loud sound from the basement was investigated by the girl in a manner of thinking like “hey, what on earth did you just do, cuz? that was LOUD…” you can’t look at it as if 1. she knew the owner was down there with a gun and 2. knew her cousin was just shot. who really knows. we can speculate anything. …we just probably shouldn’t. if drugs were involved then it’s a free-for-all. who knows what they were thinking. if the old man had been angry over the last break in, he could have been ready for just this chance. he was in the basement already, and did have multiple guns down there, loaded and ready. and more than a “confession to murder,” i think his statements are those of a man justified in his mind. i think there’s a fair amount of crazy involved here. so logical speculation on the behavior of anyone involved might be out of the scope of reality. bottom line is we don’t know enough yet. ---
**Author:** ![Snow\_Pea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Snow\_Pea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snow_Pea)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/59 "2012-11-27T04:38:21Z")
> [@Dr.Colossus](#): > > perhaps the kids were totally convinced no one was in the building, so the loud sound from the basement was investigated by the girl in a manner of thinking like “hey, what on earth did you just do, cuz? that was LOUD…” Um, have you ever heard what a Mini 14 discharge sounds like? It would not be mistaken for anything other than a huge firearm. So either she thought her buddy did it, or the homeowner did. And down the stairs she went. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/60 "2012-11-27T04:44:41Z")
> [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > This is a disgusting thing to say. Society would actually be better off if people who expressed these kinds of awful sentiments weren’t around. But I wouldn’t wish death on them, because that’s sick. So you think society would be better off with people who rob old men then with people who think that people who rob old men aren’t worth the air they breathe? When someone is so lacking in moral judgement and self control that they think it is OK to break into someones’s house and take the stuff they bought with their hard earned money, then they have pretty much irrevocably broken the social contract. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209.md?page=4)