# Criminals who got what they deserved...or precious snowflakes tragically murdered? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 26, 2012, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209 "2012-11-26T22:45:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/81 "2012-11-27T05:27:00Z")
Oh, there may be a very common reason–at least impulse–explaining why the girl went into the basement after her cousin was shot. Plenty of people rush into danger when a relative is injured somehow, even if there’s not a blame thing that the person can do for the injured party. Doesn’t make it an intelligent choice, but it’s known to happen. She had the misfortune of breaking into the house of someone with some odd “macho” set of rules for life and death that he hadn’t bothered to share with her beforehand. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/82 "2012-11-27T05:28:03Z")
If his confession is admitted as evidence in court, seems like a clear unassailable murder 2 case to me… Of course, he can always change his testimony, blame shock or disorientation or something for the earlier confession, and claim fear that she was going for a weapon when he shot her. Then it becomes murkier. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/83 "2012-11-27T05:29:07Z")
> [@Snow\_Pea](#): > > The sound would have been obvious (to anyone except maybe people totally messed up on drugs) as a deadly blast of gunfire. > > What is your point? 😕 You could easily mistake a gunshot from a floor below you as a bookcase falling over or something similar. ---
**Author:** ![Snow\_Pea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Snow\_Pea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snow_Pea)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/84 "2012-11-27T05:30:03Z")
> [@scabpicker](#): > > I have. I’ve fired a 30-.30, which is just as loud as the mini-14. I’ve also been present for a gunshot inside, in the same room I was in, with no hearing protection. It was indistinguishable from when someone set off fireworks in a similarly sized room. If I’d been on the other side of the house, I’m sure that’s what I would have assumed it was. It could also be mistaken for other sounds. There are other things that make loud, percussive sounds, and the house would make it harder to identify with any certainty. But a criminal, in the middle of a break-in, would undoubtedly interpret loud “fireworks-like” sounds as gunshots, since after all, that’s the only thing they’re probably anticipating in reaction to their actions. Not “oh cool, they’re setting off fireworks in the basement”. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Colossus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.colossus/32/9423_2.png) [@Dr.Colossus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Colossus)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/85 "2012-11-27T05:32:41Z")
> [@Snow\_Pea](#): > > But a criminal, in the middle of a break-in, would undoubtedly cutting you off right there. NO. not “undoubtedly.” PRESUMABLY. …if you pretend it in your head just right. then PRESUMABLY. factually…? no. she’s 17 and breaking into places is not the same as being a veteran of firefights. so help me i will get through to you. don’t \*believe \*everything you believe. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Colossus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.colossus/32/9423_2.png) [@Dr.Colossus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Colossus)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/86 "2012-11-27T05:37:24Z")
honestly there’s no portion of anything reported that indicates we should PRESUME she even knew what gun shots sound like. maybe SHE is the one who has never fired–nor heard–a gun shot. you can speculate it that way–and when you do–suddenly she’s heard a loud but heretofore unknown sound coming from where her cousin just went (and that’s assuming all other circumstances are factual). when you speculate _that_, it gives yet another new artificial tincture to the story. now it’s “holy shit, what what _that_?! i’d better go check!” so, once again, it’s not entirely useful to speculate such things. it’s just _fiction_. because \*\*Ekers \*\*is right: ALIENS. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/87 "2012-11-27T05:37:56Z")
> [@Snow\_Pea](#): > > But a criminal, in the middle of a break-in, would undoubtedly interpret loud “fireworks-like” sounds as gunshots, since after all, that’s the only thing they’re probably anticipating in reaction to their actions. Not “oh cool, they’re setting off fireworks in the basement”. :rolleyes: Rolleyes back atchya. You’re probably the type of person that interprets poorly running cars as gunshots. You’re not alone, people generally suck at identifying things by sound. Lots of things make loud, percussive sounds. It could be a bookshelf being thrown over, or one of MANY electronic devices failing. Hell, I had a co-worker that would not come out from under his desk when an electrical box blew up in our building, because he was certain it was a bomb (he grew up in Lebanon). Additionally, I’d like to point out that it’s very likely they thought no-one was home, since they went in unarmed. ---
**Author:** ![Snow\_Pea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Snow\_Pea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snow_Pea)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/88 "2012-11-27T05:40:12Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > You could easily mistake a gunshot from a floor below you as a bookcase falling over or something similar. Ah but what about the smell of cordite? It’s very strong. Regardless of the other facts that will come out in this case, if the homeowner shot the younger teen first, then a few minutes later the older teen (girl) came down the stairs to meet the exact same fate, that is very very weird. She would have heard the deafening shot, smelled the cordite at the top of the stairs and went down anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/89 "2012-11-27T05:44:19Z")
What about the loud ricochet sound? If movies are any good as a research tool at all, loud gunshots always come with a loud ricochet sound. There’s no WAY she could miss THAT! ---
**Author:** ![Snow\_Pea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Snow\_Pea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snow_Pea)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/90 "2012-11-27T05:44:23Z")
> [@scabpicker](#): > > Rolleyes back atchya. You’re probably the type of person that interprets poorly running cars as gunshots. You’re not alone, people generally suck at identifying things by sound. Lots of things make loud, percussive sounds. It could be a bookshelf being thrown over, or one of MANY electronic devices failing. Hell, I had a co-worker that would not come out from under his desk when an electrical box blew up in our building, because he was certain it was a bomb (he grew up in Lebanon). You don’t think criminals would assume that something that sounds like gunfire, while they are committing a crime (y’know, that occupation that often involves gunfire) would be…gunfire? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/91 "2012-11-27T05:45:17Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > Well, what the fuck are we wasting our time with prison then? Just take them out back behind the police station and put a bullet in their skull. Tell me, reaper, at what level of criminal activity does one become scum? What if instead of breaking into his house, they’d stolen his car? His wallet? His mail? His life savings through a pyramid scheme? Are these all deserving of death. At what point do we know that someone is worthless? I don’t think the criminal penalty should be death, but I just don’t give a fuck that they got themselves shot while committing a burglary. If you’d read my post you’d see I’m OK with the homeowner being punished in this case. I also don’t think that drunk drivers should be killed, but if they kill themselves by driving into a bridge support I just can’t get all worked up about it. I’ll save my sympathy for kids who get leukemia or old people who spend their lives in fear because the once safe neighborhood they grew up in is now dangerous and they can’t afford to move. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/92 "2012-11-27T05:48:27Z")
> [@Snow\_Pea](#): > > Ah but what about the smell of cordite? It’s very strong. That’s horseshit dude. You obviously have a vivid image of what happened in your head, but that doesn’t mean it is accurate. Nervous Girl: “What was that loud sound? Shit, did Nick fall down the stairs?” Or your version: “The sound of gunshots. And the smell of cordite on the air, yes, yes, obviously Nick had a gun, and he shot someone who was unlucky enough to be home. Haw Haw Haw!” Your version is a cartoon. > [@](#): > > Regardless of the other facts that will come out in this case, if the homeowner shot the younger teen first, then a few minutes later the older teen (girl) came down the stairs to meet the exact same fate, that is very very weird. She would have heard the deafening shot, smelled the cordite at the top of the stairs and went down anyway. You are assuming she could smell it, and also assuming that she would understand what it was. You are flailing to bend the facts to fit the narrative you’ve imagined. It’s silly. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Colossus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.colossus/32/9423_2.png) [@Dr.Colossus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Colossus)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/93 "2012-11-27T05:50:29Z")
> [@Snow\_Pea](#): > > You don’t think criminals would assume that something that sounds like gunfire, while they are committing a crime (y’know, that occupation that often involves gunfire) would be…gunfire? 😃 she was on bath salts, you said. clearly she thought the sound was Lord Raiden summoning lightning bolts and was rushing down to excitedly meet him. case closed. ---
**Author:** ![Snow\_Pea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Snow\_Pea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snow_Pea)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/94 "2012-11-27T05:52:56Z")
> **[Minn. man charged with murder for killing teens who broke into his home](https://www.mercurynews.com/2012/11/26/minn-man-charged-with-murder-for-killing-teens-who-broke-into-his-home/)** > > Minn. man charged with murder for killing teens who broke into his home \*"According to information Smith gave to investigators, he was in his basement when he heard the teens break into his home. He shot Brady as he came down the stairs. When the teen came to rest at the bottom of the stairs, Smith shot him in the face. A few minutes later, Kifer started down into the basement. Smith shot her as soon as he saw her hips, he said. When he tried to shoot her again, his gun jammed, at which point she laughed. He pulled out a revolver and shot her “more times than I needed to” in the chest, he said. He then put his gun under her chin, shooting her once in the head in what he described as a “good, clean finishing shot.”\* ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Colossus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.colossus/32/9423_2.png) [@Dr.Colossus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Colossus)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/95 "2012-11-27T05:58:53Z")
> [@Snow\_Pea](#): > > [Minn. man charged with murder for killing teens who broke into his home – The Mercury News](http://www.mercurynews.com/nation-world/ci_22071311/minn-man-charged-murder-killing-teens-who-broke) > > \*"According to information Smith gave to investigators, he was in his basement when he heard the teens break into his home. He shot Brady > as he came down the stairs. When the teen came to rest at the bottom of the stairs, Smith shot him in the face. > > A few minutes later, Kifer started down into the basement. Smith shot her as soon as he saw her hips, he said. When he tried to shoot her again, his gun jammed, at which point she laughed. He pulled out a revolver and shot her “more times than I needed to” in the chest, he said. He then put his gun under her chin, shooting her once in the head in what he described as a “good, clean finishing shot.”\* ? what purpose does posting this serve? ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/96 "2012-11-27T05:59:39Z")
> [@Snow\_Pea](#): > > You don’t think criminals would assume that something that sounds like gunfire, while they are committing a crime (y’know, that occupation that often involves gunfire) would be…gunfire? 😃 I’d imagine very few criminal occupations involve regular gunfire. ---
**Author:** ![Snow\_Pea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Snow\_Pea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snow_Pea)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/97 "2012-11-27T06:06:38Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > You are assuming she could smell it, It’s a very pungent smell, there is no way she would not sense it as she walked downstairs into a room where someone just got shot. But yes, whether she knew what that smell **was** is a good question, actually. What percentage of people over 16 years old in the US would recognize the smell of gunfire? ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/98 "2012-11-27T06:20:37Z")
> [@Snow\_Pea](#): > > It’s a very pungent smell, there is no way she would not sense it as she walked downstairs into a room where someone just got shot. But yes, whether she knew what that smell **was** is a good question, actually. It’s a ridiculous question. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/99 "2012-11-27T06:23:16Z")
> [@Snow\_Pea](#): > > You don’t think criminals would assume that something that sounds like gunfire, while they are committing a crime (y’know, that occupation that often involves gunfire) would be…gunfire? 😃 You don’t think that someone in a house that hears something like an electrical component blowing up wouldn’t think that it’s an electrical component? They give off some nasty burning smells, too. I’m sure we can find one that smells like cordite if that would please ya. (And I noticed you snipped the part of the response that negated your comeback, that they likely thought no one was home. Do you suppose she thought she was going down to face an armed ghost?) ---
**Author:** ![Snow\_Pea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Snow\_Pea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snow_Pea)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/100 "2012-11-27T06:27:53Z")
> [@scabpicker](#): > > You don’t think that someone in a house that hears something like an electrical component blowing up wouldn’t think that it’s an electrical component? At the exact moment they are burglarizing a house? An activity that you could, y’know, get shot doing? :smack: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209.md?page=6)