# Criminals who got what they deserved...or precious snowflakes tragically murdered? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 26, 2012, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209 "2012-11-26T22:45:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/141 "2012-11-27T18:05:10Z")
I would say a majority of the posters in this thread didn’t have a problem with the first shots. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/142 "2012-11-27T18:19:11Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > A sob or a gasp of pain _can_ sound like a bark of laughter. Also some people do laugh when hurt or frightened or in shock. Or so I hear. I know I’ve seen the second one. At least once in real life, and once in a James Bond movie. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/143 "2012-11-27T18:46:42Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Also some people do laugh when hurt or frightened or in shock. Or so I hear. I know I’ve seen the second one. At least once in real life, and once in a James Bond movie. Was it Christopher Walken in _A View to a Kill_? ---
**Author:** ![Snow\_Pea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Snow\_Pea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snow_Pea)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/144 "2012-11-27T18:53:57Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > A sob or a gasp of pain _can_ sound like a bark of laughter. The tox reports on the teens will be interesting. The girl was a known addict, so it’s very possible she was hopped up on something and did indeed laugh. We’ll see. ---
**Author:** ![miss\_elizabeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@miss\_elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miss_elizabeth)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/145 "2012-11-27T18:59:53Z")
> [@fumster](#): > > So you think society would be better off with people who rob old men then with people who think that people who rob old men aren’t worth the air they breathe? Yes. > [@](#): > > When someone is so lacking in moral judgement and self control that they think it is OK to break into someones’s house and take the stuff they bought with their hard earned money, then they have pretty much irrevocably broken the social contract. What about when they murder a couple of teens? Does that “irrevocably break the social contract” or is ok when old men do it? Because, that’s the actual discussion here. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/146 "2012-11-27T18:59:59Z")
> [@Snow\_Pea](#): > > Ah but what about the smell of cordite? It’s very strong. > [@](#): > > A factoid about Cordite that some may find interesting is that a large amount of ammonia was used in it’s manufacture, along with other chemicals, that gave it a strong, peculiar and unpleasant smell when the cartridges were fired. This gave rise to the term “the stench of Cordite”, a term that is still used today by the ignorant. It’s been a VERY long time since Cordite was used, the smell of today’s propellants is nothing like that. When I was a boy I fired some surplus .303 Brit ammo loaded with Cordite, I know the difference. That ammo was old then, today it would be valuable as a collector’s item. > **[Gunpowder, An Overview Of Modern Smokeless Propellants](http://shakeypete.blogspot.com/2005/06/gunpowder-overview-of-modern-smokeless.html)** > > The shooter and handloader is blessed with the widest choice ever of smokeless propellants, commonly called "gunpowder", a misnomer. Gunpowd... ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/147 "2012-11-27T19:02:49Z")
> [@Snow\_Pea](#): > > The tox reports on the teens will be interesting. The girl was a known addict, so it’s very possible she was hopped up on something and did indeed laugh. We’ll see. As long as we’re still on the speculation trail, I would like to predict that the old man has a huge methamphetamine problem that made him paranoid and highly violent. You heard it here first. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/148 "2012-11-27T19:06:43Z")
> [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > Yes. > > What about when they murder a couple of teens? Does that “irrevocably break the social contract” or is ok when old men do it? Because, that’s the actual discussion here. I think everyone would agree that, at face value, being killed for robbery is a punishment too high. However, once you enter someone’s house, all options are open. There is no social contract once in your house. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Colossus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.colossus/32/9423_2.png) [@Dr.Colossus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Colossus)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/149 "2012-11-27T19:09:16Z")
> [@Snow\_Pea](#): > > The girl was a known addict. cite? ---
**Author:** ![James52637](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@James52637](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/James52637)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/150 "2012-11-27T19:14:48Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > What’s the penalty for murder in your neighborhood? The penalty for self defense, you mean? I’m not sure. Two kids burglarize my home? Yup, they’re endangering my life. ---
**Author:** ![Snow\_Pea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Snow\_Pea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snow_Pea)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/151 "2012-11-27T19:15:02Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Shooting a helpless, wounded person because they are supposedly “laughing” is not defending yourself. It’s not even close. Going by his own statement of what happened, what he did was murder, not self defense. Agreed. The homeowner seems to have freely admitted that he executed the girl after she laughed at him. His exact quote was “'_If you’re trying to shoot somebody and they laugh at you, you go again_” Cite: [Family's outrage after star students were found murdered in man's basement after he claims they robbed his home on Thanksgiving | Daily Mail Online](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2238705/Familys-outrage-star-students-murdered-mans-basement-claims-robbed-home-Thanksgiving.html) ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/152 "2012-11-27T19:20:29Z")
> [@James52637](#): > > The penalty for self defense, you mean? I’m not sure. Two kids burglarize my home? Yup, they’re endangering my life. Again, this isn’t a matter of your opinion. It’s a matter of law. Real life isn’t a Charles Bronson movie, there are consequences for psychopaths. ---
**Author:** ![James52637](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@James52637](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/James52637)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/153 "2012-11-27T19:21:34Z")
I’ll just put my heartless opinion out there in _plain terms_: Kids who are going to steal from an old man because they’re greedy or addicts deserve to die. IMHO: The fact that we live in a society that believes theft is no biggie, especially when it could endanger the victim’s life by leaving them without currency to purchase food for themselves, is pathetic. ---
**Author:** ![James52637](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@James52637](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/James52637)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/154 "2012-11-27T19:22:37Z")
This absolutely is a matter of opinion. This is GREAT DEBATES on a forum. Not a courtroom or legal counsel discussion. You’re singling me out, yet everyone before me stated their opinions. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/155 "2012-11-27T19:23:52Z")
I’ll use the Snow Pea lens to do the old man now: He was just a sad, old man, who gobbled up NRA nonsense about how his gun made him a brave defender of his home and the first bulwark against tyranny. His gun gave a sense of grandeur in his otherwise barren and crumbling life. When he heard the break-in, he became an action hero. He would out think, out fight, and out charm the invaders. He was John McClain and his cluttered house became the Nakatome Plaza. And _Now I Have a Machine Gun Ho Ho Ho…_ ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/156 "2012-11-27T19:25:05Z")
> [@James52637](#): > > This absolutely is a matter of opinion. This is GREAT DEBATES on a forum. Not a courtroom or legal counsel discussion. You’re singling me out, yet everyone before me stated their opinions. Lucky for us, people with your opinion are fairly rare. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/157 "2012-11-27T19:25:21Z")
> [@James52637](#): > > The penalty for self defense, you mean? I’m not sure. Two kids burglarize my home? Yup, they’re endangering my life. How is this even close to the case? The Castle doctrine allows a homeowner the _presumption_ that their well-being is under threat from an intruder. It doesn’t pass ANY judgment on the actual threat level posed by an intruder. As for this bozo, if events proceeded as he reported them, he murdered 2 human beings. Full stop. I’ll let the legal eagles examine the full legal implications, but if you are so confident in your own safety that you deliberately place your weapon under another human being’s chin and fire, you are no longer under any sort of _imminent_ threat. And yes, invoking the “Great Debates” argument is fallacious. You are entitled to opinions but not your own facts. Trying to argue that matters of fact are subject to interpretation is asinine. ---
**Author:** ![Snow\_Pea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Snow\_Pea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snow_Pea)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/158 "2012-11-27T19:25:52Z")
> [@James52637](#): > > I’ll just put my heartless opinion out there in _plain terms_: Kids who are going to steal from an old man because they’re greedy or addicts deserve to die But the penalty under the law for burglary is not death, it’s a jail term. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/159 "2012-11-27T19:27:17Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Was it Christopher Walken in _A View to a Kill_? If it involved a Blimp and a long fall then yes. And Bond was a murderer too damit 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/160 "2012-11-27T19:27:36Z")
Snow Pea, you skipped over the request for a cite asked of you in post #149. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209.md?page=9)