# Criminals who got what they deserved...or precious snowflakes tragically murdered? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 26, 2012, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209 "2012-11-26T22:45:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Snow\_Pea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Snow\_Pea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snow_Pea)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/161 "2012-11-27T19:28:10Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > I’ll use the Snow Pea lens to do the old man now: LOL 😃 From now on, I’m calling my glasses “Snow Pea Lenses”. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/162 "2012-11-27T19:28:31Z")
> [@James52637](#): > > I’ll just put my heartless opinion out there in _plain terms_: Kids who are going to steal from an old man because they’re greedy or addicts deserve to die. And I submit that anyone – like the old man in this case – who is itching for a reason to kill someone should never be allowed to own a firearm. > [@](#): > > This absolutely is a matter of opinion. This is GREAT DEBATES on a forum. Not a courtroom or legal counsel discussion. You’re singling me out, yet everyone before me stated their opinions. Only because you’re embracing acts that are quite clearly murder. ---
**Author:** ![James52637](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@James52637](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/James52637)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/163 "2012-11-27T19:28:59Z")
I apparently have made a fool out of myself by misreading the OP. I didn’t realize he went out of his way to kill the two. I do agree with whomever it was on page two stating that you don’t know when you are out of danger, and just because you shot someone, that doesn’t mean they’re out of the game. But, yeah. You’re right. Having the time to put the gun under their chins and fire is different. ---
**Author:** ![James52637](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@James52637](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/James52637)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/164 "2012-11-27T19:30:46Z")
I wouldn’t have the guts to kill someone, personally, unless they really are endangering me. I’m not saying I’d do the same as he. Minus the execution style murder of the two, what he did was _just._ If he had shot them both in the head to start with, then I couldn’t say there’s anything wrong with it. That’s what I had thought had happened when I first read it. ---
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/165 "2012-11-27T19:34:05Z")
Looks to me like there’s plenty of stupid and crazy to go around in this case. The homeowner is probably justified in his initial shot, but the execution style second shot and confessing that he wanted them dead. That’s clearly unnecessary and well within the territory of second degree murder. The kids were stupid themselves for breaking into the house, especially one that had been broken into before, and even more so for the second one. I guess I could buy that the guy snapped, that he was sick of it and, after having fired the first shot, he was going to finish it, but that’s not an excuse. So, to answer the OP’s questions, no they didn’t deserve to die, but they weren’t precious snowflakes. They made some stupid mistakes that had dire consequences. And, regardless of how thick or thin you may think the line between self defense and murder is, that guy definitely crossed it. ---
**Author:** ![Snow\_Pea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Snow\_Pea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snow_Pea)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/166 "2012-11-27T19:42:37Z")
Good article here that gives more detail about the homeowner and the teen girl burglar: [Nicholas Brady (17) and his cousin Haile Kifer (18) were shot as they allegedly broke into a home on Thanksgiving Day - MyDeathSpace.com](http://www.mydeathspace.com/article/2012/11/27/Nicholas_Brady_%2817%29_and_his_cousin_Haile_Kifer_%2818%29_were_shot_as_they_allegedly_broke_into_a_home_on_Thanksgiving_Day) ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/167 "2012-11-27T19:48:08Z")
> [@Snow\_Pea](#): > > The homeowner seems to have freely admitted that he executed the girl after she laughed at him. Yes, and it’s a sin to kill a mocking girl. ---
**Author:** ![Snow\_Pea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Snow\_Pea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snow_Pea)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/168 "2012-11-27T19:49:35Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Yes, and it’s a sin to kill a mocking girl. I lol’d. Going to hell now. ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/169 "2012-11-27T19:51:29Z")
I’m not sure we have all of this story yet. The girl really came down the stairs after she heard the really loud gunshot? I realize some people are stupid, high or both at times, but this guy could’ve shouted, “Get the hell out of my house,” before lurking and shooting the second person. One of the dangers of a “career” in burglary is getting killed by the homeowner. But this man could’ve ended it by shooting the guy ONCE before his death shots happened. [New article tells us he killed the teens](http://www.wptv.com/dpp/news/national/byron-david-smith-killed-teens-haile-kifer-nicholas-schaeffel-because-he-feared-weapons-cops-say) because “he feared weapons.” :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > Wetzel said that while the shootings happened on Thursday, Smith waited until Friday to report the deaths, explaining that “he didn’t want to trouble us on a holiday.” > > In the complaint, Smith said he was in his basement when he heard a window breaking upstairs, followed by footsteps that eventually approached the basement stairwell. Smith said he fired when Schaeffel came into view from the waist down. > After the teen fell down the stairs, Smith said he shot him in the face as he lay on the floor. > > “I want him dead,” the complaint quoted Smith telling an investigator. > > Smith said he dragged Schaeffel’s body into his basement workshop, then sat down on his chair. After a few minutes, Kifer began coming down the stairs and he shot her as soon as her hips appeared, he said. > > After shooting her with both the Mini 14 and the .22-caliber revolver, he dragged her next to Schaeffel. With her still gasping for air, he fired a shot under her chin “up into the cranium,” the complaint says. > > “Smith described it as `a good clean finishing shot,'” according to the complaint. Yep. That’s a double homicide. Even from Smith’s statement it seems like a warning shot would’ve ended this with no one dead. ---
**Author:** ![MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c0e974/32.png) [@MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MPB_in_Salt_Lake)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/170 "2012-11-27T19:57:48Z")
> [@Snow\_Pea](#): > > … the homeowner and the teen girl burglar. I once saw a spicy “documentary” movie about a homeowner and a teen girl burglar. ---
**Author:** ![Snow\_Pea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Snow\_Pea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snow_Pea)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/171 "2012-11-27T19:58:45Z")
> [@Locrian](#): > > Yep. That’s a double homicide. Even from Smith’s statement it seems like _a warning shot would’ve ended this_ with no one dead. Well, hearing not one but **two** shots from the basement didn’t faze the female burglar - she headed down into the basement anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/172 "2012-11-27T19:58:46Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Yes, and it’s a sin to kill a mocking girl. You win the internets for the day. ---
**Author:** ![MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c0e974/32.png) [@MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MPB_in_Salt_Lake)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/173 "2012-11-27T20:06:44Z")
> [@MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](#): > > I once saw a spicy “documentary” movie about a homeowner and a teen girl burglar. Now that I look back trying to remember it, I seems as if it also ended up with the TGB (teen girl burglar) getting shot in the face… ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/174 "2012-11-27T20:09:03Z")
> [@Snow\_Pea](#): > > Well, hearing not one but **two** shots from the basement didn’t faze the female burglar - she headed down into the basement anyway. Yes. This is why I’m not sure he waited “several minutes” for her to come down the stairs. Someone else posted the possibility of her fearing her cousin had a firearm, but I’m pretty sure she would’ve known that ahead of time. Even if she really DID come downstairs after hearing TWO loud gunshots several minutes later, Nick was her cousin. Family concern? I dunno. Shit, I sound like a lawyer now. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/175 "2012-11-27T20:10:37Z")
The shooter’s version of events definitely has some strange elements. Why did the girl go downstairs after shots were fired? Why did the shooter endanger himself by moving a wounded trespasser? Why did he wait so long to contact the police? After all, for all he knew there might be \*more \*than two people involved in the break-in. I hope that there’s a careful forensics investigation into the wounds that the two burglars received. I would not be surprised if it turns out that events did not play out the way that the shooter described, and that he delayed contacting the police while he tried to come up with a story that sounded better than: “I caught 'em breaking in, marched 'em down to the basement at gunpoint, and blew their brains out.” Mind you, I’m not saying that’s what \*\*did \*\*happen, but it certainly makes more sense than what he \*\*says \*\*happened. And I hope the police take the time to find out one way or the other. ---
**Author:** ![Snow\_Pea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Snow\_Pea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snow_Pea)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/176 "2012-11-27T20:17:54Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > The shooter’s version of events definitely has some strange elements. Why did the girl go downstairs after shots were fired? Why did he endanger himself by moving a wounded trespasser? Why did he wait so long to contact the police? After all, for all he knew there might be \*more \*than two people involved in the break-in. On the Facebook memorial page\*, there are quite a few locals (mostly friends and acqiuantences of the dead teens) who are saying that there was a third kid with them who ran away when he heard the shots. However, that’s just facebook chatter. However, if it turns out that there were three burglars in the house, the homeowner might have felt under siege and that contributed to what, in hindsight, was obviously a huge overreaction on his part. Tried to link to it, but it’s been taken down. ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/177 "2012-11-27T20:27:57Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > Why did he wait so long to contact the police? After all, for all he knew there might be \*more \*than two people involved in the break-in. In the article I posted, police say his excuse was “he didn’t want to trouble us on a holiday.” (up the page a bit) It also says he fears weapons. Maybe they got that wrong. After he allegedly lost over $10,000 in firearms from a previous break-in, he fears that weapons will be stolen! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Snow\_Pea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Snow\_Pea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snow_Pea)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/178 "2012-11-27T20:33:12Z")
> [@Locrian](#): > > In the article I posted, police say his excuse was “he didn’t want to trouble us on a holiday.” (up the page a bit) > > It also says he fears weapons. Maybe they got that wrong. After he allegedly lost over $10,000 in firearms from a previous break-in, he fears that weapons will be stolen! 😃 In the same facebook memorial page referenced above, there were multiple mentions that these kids had actaully broken into this same guy’s house once already. And the homeowner had reported a burglary in October where some of his guns were stolen\*. Not a big stretch for the homeowner to worry that the same perps who stole the guns were back. And now armed with the stolen guns. Cite: [http://www.mydeathspace.com/article/2012/11/27/Nicholas\_Brady\_(17)\_and\_his\_cousin\_Haile\_Kifer\_(18)\_were\_shot\_as\_they\_allegedly\_broke\_into\_a\_home\_on\_Thanksgiving\_Day](http://www.mydeathspace.com/article/2012/11/27/Nicholas_Brady_%2817%29_and_his_cousin_Haile_Kifer_%2818%29_were_shot_as_they_allegedly_broke_into_a_home_on_Thanksgiving_Day) ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/179 "2012-11-27T20:39:13Z")
> [@Dr.Colossus](#): > > holy bananas. what a story. > > stuff like this is weird…it’s a mixed combination of murderous tendencies and someone coming into your home, granting you the chance. > > this started out as home-defense and ended full-ass psycho. > > we had a similar case here when a guy’s shop was robbed; he shot one kid, ran outside chasing/shooting the others, and either reloaded or got another gun to re-shoot and be sure he killed the writhing injured kid. he was found guilty. i guess the logic is these people want to kill someone, they just want to wait for the circumstances to at least start out legal? Dead people don’t testify. I’d always heard if you are going to shoot someone, kill them. Even if you aren’t found guilty, criminally, there is always the chance that you might be found negligent or something and be sued for damages. Any truth to any of this? ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/180 "2012-11-27T20:39:18Z")
> [@Snow\_Pea](#): > > In the same facebook memorial page referenced above, there were multiple mentions that these kids had actaully broken into this same guy’s house once already. And the homeowner had reported a burglary in October where some of his guns were stolen\*. Not a big stretch for the homeowner to worry that the same perps who stole the guns were back. And now armed with the stolen guns. > > Cite: [http://www.mydeathspace.com/article/2012/11/27/Nicholas\_Brady\_(17)\_and\_his\_cousin\_Haile\_Kifer\_(18)\_were\_shot\_as\_they\_allegedly\_broke\_into\_a\_home\_on\_Thanksgiving\_Day](http://www.mydeathspace.com/article/2012/11/27/Nicholas_Brady_%2817%29_and_his_cousin_Haile_Kifer_%2818%29_were_shot_as_they_allegedly_broke_into_a_home_on_Thanksgiving_Day) Yup. And after shooting once and watching a kid roll down the stairs defenselessly, probably wasn’t the gun stealers. 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209.md?page=10)