# Crimson and clover??? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 31, 2004, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crimson-and-clover/247963 "2004-05-31T21:33:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Little\_Bo\_Peep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ea5d25/32.png) [@Little\_Bo\_Peep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Bo_Peep)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2004, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crimson-and-clover/247963/1 "2004-05-31T21:33:35Z")
Remember the song “Crimson and Clover” by, Tommy James and the Shondells? Anyway, is crimson and clover supposed to mean anything? I mean, other than the fact that crimson is a colour and clover is a flower? \*Crimson and clover, over and over, Crimson and clover, over and over… \* I’ve had that song in my head for a while now, thanks to those annoying A&W ads. Anyone know? 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2004, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crimson-and-clover/247963/2 "2004-05-31T21:51:26Z")
Oh thank you so much for telling me this song is in a commercial now. My dad made the mistake of telling me it was his favorite song when he was a kid and I always rip on him for it now. For the meaning of the song…maybe the girl was wearing red and green, but I suspect they just picked those words because they rhyme. I wouldn’t read too much into that song. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2004, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crimson-and-clover/247963/3 "2004-05-31T22:12:49Z")
I always assumed they were using “clover” as a color, also. It’s got a nice alliteration thing going. ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2004, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crimson-and-clover/247963/4 "2004-05-31T22:24:53Z")
Tommy James said in an interview I either read or saw a long time ago (sorry, no cite) that there was no meaning to the words, they just fit the song. ---
**Author:** ![AskNott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asknott/32/5790_2.png) [@AskNott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AskNott)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2004, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crimson-and-clover/247963/5 "2004-05-31T22:30:39Z")
I always took it to mean lost virginity (hers, hence the crimson) in a field of clover. Clover is sometimes grown as a forage crop for cattle and horses, and it’s one of those crop-rotation plants that enriches the soil. Clover hay fetches a better price, if I remember right. It was a sappy, endlessly repetitive song. Tommy James, you’ll remember, made his name by endlessly singing, “My baby does the hanky-panky.” I’m told he’s still out there somewhere, singing those same two songs on the retro-rock circuit. It’s less about the music, and more about historical re-enactment. ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2004, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crimson-and-clover/247963/6 "2004-05-31T22:38:10Z")
> [@](#): > > I’m told he’s still out there somewhere, singing those same two songs on the retro-rock circuit. It’s less about the music, and more about historical re-enactment. I must disagree. Tommy James did some great songs. I Think We’re Alone Now Mony Mony Crystal Blue Persuasion Sweet Cherry Wine To name a few. If you don’t like them that’s fine. But there is no need to denigrate his music. ---
**Author:** ![Swede\_Hollow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3bc359/32.png) [@Swede\_Hollow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Swede_Hollow)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2004, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crimson-and-clover/247963/7 "2004-06-01T00:29:32Z")
Obviously I don’t listen to songs too closely. I always assumed it was talking about incense and clover wine. I like _Ball of Fire_ and _Draggin’ the Line_ better, though. ---
**Author:** ![Khadaji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Khadaji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khadaji)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2004, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crimson-and-clover/247963/8 "2004-06-01T00:51:56Z")
> [@AskNott](#): > > It was a sappy, endlessly repetitive song. Tommy James, you’ll remember, made his name by endlessly singing, “My baby does the hanky-panky.” eeewww, was that him? I hate that song. I do like some of his other stuff though. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2004, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crimson-and-clover/247963/9 "2004-06-01T01:57:42Z")
Is clover wine actually made of clovers? I’ve always wondered that. ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2004, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crimson-and-clover/247963/10 "2004-06-01T02:08:14Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > Is clover wine actually made of clovers? I’ve always wondered that. It’s made from the flowers. Usually red clover flowers. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Kentzel-Griffin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ccd318/32.png) [@John\_Kentzel-Griffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Kentzel-Griffin)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2004, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crimson-and-clover/247963/11 "2004-06-01T02:16:34Z")
Off to Cafe Society. **DrMatrix** - GQ Moderator ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Blue\_Sky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d26b3c/32.png) [@Mr.Blue\_Sky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Blue_Sky)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2004, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crimson-and-clover/247963/12 "2004-06-01T02:22:51Z")
I read an interview with Tommy James about this song. I liked the bit about the wavery vocals near the end. Tommy’s vocals were fed through a guitar amp. A lot of people called radio stations thinking something was wrong the station while others thought their radios were broken. ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2004, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crimson-and-clover/247963/13 "2004-06-01T02:25:11Z")
> [@AskNott](#): > > It was a sappy, endlessly repetitive song. Tommy James, you’ll remember, made his name by endlessly singing, “My baby does the hanky-panky.” I’m told he’s still out there somewhere, singing those same two songs on the retro-rock circuit. It’s less about the music, and more about historical re-enactment. Another take on this: Radio stations have _very_ limited playlists. This includes oldies radio stations. An artist can have 10 #1 hits and the oldies stations will only play 2 of them, ever. Just because you haven’t heard the other hits by an artist doesn’t mean that they don’t exist. Excuse me, I’m going to clear my mind and try to remember when I used to like the phrase “clear channel.” ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2004, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crimson-and-clover/247963/14 "2004-06-01T02:31:42Z")
I guess reading [the lyrics](http://www.elyrics.net/go/t/Tommy%20James%20&%20The%20Shondells%20Lyrics/Crimson%20And%20Clover%20Lyrics/) doesn’t help much. No matter [who](http://www.joanjett.com/Lyrics/lyrics/CrimsonAndClover.htm) sings it. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Bo\_Peep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ea5d25/32.png) [@Little\_Bo\_Peep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Bo_Peep)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2004, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crimson-and-clover/247963/15 "2004-06-01T14:17:15Z")
And clover flowers make really good honey… but not as good as honey made from mint. His website (where he is lovingly refered to as simply “TJ”) does not mention anything about what crimson and clover might mean. You can book him though for a gig! Anyone interested? You mean that “Mony Mony” and “I Think We’re Alone Now”, who we all remember being popularized by the likes of the great Billy Idol and Tiffany, were covers??? Oh geez, I am so young and ignorant! I wonder what ever happened to Tiffany. I wonder if she did a broadway comeback like her 80’s contemporary Debbie Gibson. Anyway, I kind of like that song (Crimson and Clover). It’s kind of got this groovy theatrical sound to it, like it should be in some indie flick or something. ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2004, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crimson-and-clover/247963/16 "2004-06-01T14:33:12Z")
> [@Little Bo Peep](#): > > I wonder what ever happened to Tiffany. I wonder if she did a broadway comeback like her 80’s contemporary Debbie Gibson. Not quite. [She did Playboy](http://www.eonline.com/News/Items/0,1,9565,00.html). ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2004, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crimson-and-clover/247963/17 "2004-06-01T16:14:48Z")
Tiffany was a contestant on _Celebrity Boot Camp_. ---
**Author:** ![Shirley\_Ujest](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shirley\_Ujest](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shirley_Ujest)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2004, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crimson-and-clover/247963/18 "2004-06-01T17:25:06Z")
It use to be that if you were on Hollywood Squares your career was in the crapper, now it’s Celebrity Boot Camp and Playboy shots. BTW, BO Peep, thank you for sticking that song lyric in my mind. Now I have it mixed with with \*My baby does the hanky panky…criiiimson and clooooover over and ooooover. \* Make it stop. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2004, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crimson-and-clover/247963/19 "2004-06-01T18:17:30Z")
I thought I heard the wavy voices were due to a “wah-wah” pedal. That song had a certain amount of techno-cool to it. Plus, Tommy James sang “I Think We’re Alone Now”, which was a teen romance hit. Otherwise, Suck CIty ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2004, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crimson-and-clover/247963/20 "2004-06-01T19:36:15Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > I thought I heard the wavy voices were due to a “wah-wah” pedal. I wasn’t on that session, but IIRC, that flutter-effect was about 4-6 hz, pretty fast for a footpedal. It would be easy to feed it thru a guitar amp and set the tremolo to that speed; a tremolo just superimposes a slow, under-20hz waveform on the signal and allows adjustment of amplitude. In contrast, a wah-wah effect, besides being usually manually controlled, alters the frequency response of the signal, going from a high-cut to a high-boost. A tremolo is (frequency response)-independent. The Crimson song sounds more like a tremolo to me. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crimson-and-clover/247963.md?page=2)