# Critical Life Decision: Help Me Choose \[Career-related\] **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 22, 2013, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critical-life-decision-help-me-choose-career-related/674519 "2013-11-22T15:02:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2013, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critical-life-decision-help-me-choose-career-related/674519/21 "2013-11-22T19:59:48Z")
Here’s the thing: It’s still law. If what you don’t like about your current job is the practice of law, then switching to a non-profit isn’t going to help much with that. If it’s because you’re doing stuff you find unethical or otherwise just don’t give a shit about, it’ll help, but wreck your financial status. Is there maybe a middle ground of keeping your current job but doing more pro-bono volunteering (don’t most firms let you do that?)? That way, you’ll do something worthwhile with your same skills, and still have that 2nd kid, replace the stucco, etc… ---
**Author:** ![Dendarii\_Dame](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bbce88/32.png) [@Dendarii\_Dame](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dendarii_Dame)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2013, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critical-life-decision-help-me-choose-career-related/674519/22 "2013-11-22T20:03:12Z")
Have you actually _done_ anything like your dream job before? How much do you know about this particular non-profit? If you’re happy at work, the sacrifices probably will be worth it. But sometimes what should make us happy, for whatever reason, doesn’t. Having a backup plan isn’t a bad idea. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2013, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critical-life-decision-help-me-choose-career-related/674519/23 "2013-11-22T20:21:22Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > I personally WOULDN’T do it. Reason #1 is that I don’t really believe in dream jobs or I have never seen really good evidence they exist outside of a few rare specialties (and that doesn’t include any office jobs). Every other job I know of is more about sucking less than the alternatives and all about the pay. I realize not everyone feels that way but I would clean gas station restrooms all day if it paid enough. Rewarding and fun is for your free time and money goes a long way towards making that part more rewarding. This job may not seem nearly as great after you have been doing it for a year or two. You may not even like it as much as your current one. > > Reason #2 is that you say it could impact your thoughts about having another child. I assume that means you want one to some degree. Screw the fictitious dream job, kids are way more important than any of those even if those jobs did exist and having kids lasts a lifetime (hopefully) whereas any job can just go poof at any time. It may disappear right after your wife’s reasonable fertile age and that would be a terrible tragedy. > > If you don’t like your current job in general, you could just widen your net to anything that has less stress/better hours/more interesting for somewhat less pay rather than just deciding ahead of time that there is only one good job for you. That would open up your options a lot more than this black or white situation that you have mentally boxed yourself into. I was pretty much going to say the same thing. My wife, at one point, had to make essentially the same decision, and she chose the money (for a variety or reasons). If you really love this organization, offer to do some pro bono work, or get involved in something else that you find exciting. Even those people in great jobs that they love don’t live to work, they work to live. I personally would never trade a job I love for my kid (or a potential kid). I would also never potentially risk my marriage or take on the stress that comes with being financially insecure. I think far more people would rather their current job pay a lot more than pay less but be more rewarding. That said, you know yourself and your finances better than anyone. If you feel your job should be your life’s work, then go for it. Plenty of people get by on less than what a two income family working full-time does, so if you do accept that job, you can probably make it work. But recognize that taking that job will mean more work for you in that sense. Either way, good luck. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2013, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critical-life-decision-help-me-choose-career-related/674519/24 "2013-11-22T20:56:30Z")
Thanks all. Keep it coming. I really appreciate hearing everyone’s perspective. The equation is not exactly current job = good for family, new job = bad for family. If it were that simple, I’d choose duties to my family over self-fulfillment or helping others. The new job would mean more time with my family. And it would also mean a happier Daddy, both of which I think are pretty important both to child and wife. We don’t know even now whether we plan to have a second kid. If we decide to do so, our financial situation will not be the biggest factor, but I think it matters at the margins. Daycare is insanely expensive. As to middle ground, it exists, but I don’t think it really affects this decision. There are jobs where I would be marginally more fulfilled and would not involve such a drastic change in pay. But for most of them the pay cut outweighs the increase in satisfaction. The legal economy is sort of weird in that it is substantially [bimodal](http://socialevolutionforum.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/bimodal2008.jpg) (that’s starting salary, but it is pretty reflective). I could also do (even) more _pro bono_ work. But for various reasons it’s really not the same as being in the organization. I’ve done both and there’s no comparison. In answer to **Dendarii Dame** ’s question: Both before and after getting my law degree I have worked in very similar jobs for as long as 8 months, though not for this particular organization. I know the legal director and have followed this particular office for some time. There’s always a chance that things won’t work out as expected, and that’s part of the risk here. But I have a good idea about the personalities and dynamics involved in this new option. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2013, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critical-life-decision-help-me-choose-career-related/674519/25 "2013-11-22T21:25:36Z")
Couple a more question if you don’t mind me asking: 1. Exactly how old are you? 2. When would you decide/plan on having another kid? 3. Do you live in or near a major city with a lot of legal jobs? 4. Would you prefer the worst reasonable outcome at the new job (eg. lifetime staff attorney, similar low pay) or the best outcome at your current job (eg. partner, high pay) 5. I know you said the job doesn’t come up often, but is it rare like Tonight Show host is rare, or just hard to get due to little turnover? Basically, could you stay where you are and wait 5-10 years until it comes up again? 6. How secure is your current job, and are you hoping to make partner at some point? ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2013, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critical-life-decision-help-me-choose-career-related/674519/26 "2013-11-22T21:40:01Z")
Something to keep in mind is that a job that seems ideal when you’re making good money at another job may soon be less than ideal when you’re actually confronted with whatever BS is at that job AND making the lower paycheck. In other words, the low pay may drag down your idealized perception of the job after a while. And then where would you be? Another thing to consider is (and I don’t mean to pry) whether we’re talking “low pay” in terms of generic white collar worker, or are we talking “low pay” in terms of classic, “what people think lawyers make” type money? By that, I mean that my wife was never “high paid” in civil lawyer terms, but in terms of most people, IT included, she was very well paid. For her, “low pay” would be something more like what I made after I met her, which would be middling for early-mid career IT staff. 2 people making that kind of money would do alright, if not spectacular. I will note that she said that a lot of lawyers did make money on par with teachers (which is diddly around here), so 2 people making that would still struggle. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2013, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critical-life-decision-help-me-choose-career-related/674519/27 "2013-11-22T21:42:53Z")
\*\*1. Exactly how old are you? \*\* Reluctant to say in an effort to preserve what little anonymity I might have (since there are a lot of other puzzle pieces out there). As it relates to fertility and increases risks of birth defects, I’m comfortable with waiting as long as four more years if necessary to have another kid. \*\*2. When would you decide/plan on having another kid? \*\* If we decide to do it, we would start trying in late 2014, most likely. **3. Do you live in or near a major city with a lot of legal jobs?** Yes. \*\*4. Would you prefer the worst reasonable outcome at the new job (eg. lifetime staff attorney, similar low pay) or the best outcome at your current job (eg. partner, high pay)? \*\* My answer would be virtually identical to the basic question I’ve posed in this thread, since I am assuming I will become a partner but that I cannot count on becoming a legal director. \*\*5. I know you said the job doesn’t come up often, but is it rare like Tonight Show host is rare, or just hard to get due to little turnover? Basically, could you stay where you are and wait 5-10 years until it comes up again? \*\* It’s a combination of three things: (a) the rarity of the job overall (not Tonight Show rare but network TV sitcom actor rare); (b) the rarity of an open position for which I have some connections and that is near me; and © the timing (even though there’s no real rational reason for it, it is harder to get the job after a certain point of experience). \*\*6. How secure is your current job, and are you hoping to make partner at some point? \*\* As secure as any job in the current legal economy, which is really anyone’s guess. We’re doing fine as a firm, but everyone is sailing in new waters after 2007 and probably half of the firms my size will not exist in 20 years (which is not to say the people will be out of work, but some of them will). I fully expect to make partner if I stay. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2013, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critical-life-decision-help-me-choose-career-related/674519/28 "2013-11-22T21:49:30Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Another thing to consider is (and I don’t mean to pry) whether we’re talking “low pay” in terms of generic white collar worker, or are we talking “low pay” in terms of classic, “what people think lawyers make” type money? The salary is not finalized, but it will be roughly in the middle of the first mound in the chart I posted above. Since income doesn’t say much when you don’t know all my assets or my liabilities or my family commitments, or my wife’s, I tried to frame things in terms of the actual impact it will have on the household budget–which is pretty much that we’d be concerned about the size of the water bill each month and whether we could afford the nice bread. ---
**Author:** ![JerrySTL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e274bd/32.png) [@JerrySTL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JerrySTL)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2013, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critical-life-decision-help-me-choose-career-related/674519/29 "2013-11-22T22:02:21Z")
You are at work about 40 hours a week. You probably sleep about 58 hours a week. That leaves 70 hours a week to worry about money. Of course if the worry is causing you to loose sleep and think about it on the job, you could be worrying about money much, much more. Also you may need to take up a part time job to make ends meet. You may need to factor in that grief. However I once took a job that paid $10K less a year. But my commute went from 2 hours a day to a half hour; spent less on gasoline and car expenses; the new job had advancement potential plus other benefits. Due to advancement, I’m making many times more the $10K that I gave up. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2013, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critical-life-decision-help-me-choose-career-related/674519/30 "2013-11-22T22:08:39Z")
> [@JerrySTL](#): > > You are at work about 40 hours a week. Even dream job wouldn’t be 40 hours a week, but it would be about 10 hours per week less than current job. ---
**Author:** ![usedtobe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@usedtobe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usedtobe)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2013, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critical-life-decision-help-me-choose-career-related/674519/31 "2013-11-22T22:55:26Z")
Haven’t read all, but what the hell… How narrow is your legal field? If the stucco falls off and the kid gets busted and you REALLY need serious cash, could you, after 5-10 years as a staff attorney just pick up the phone and have nice, juicy $300K/yr gig within a week? Or, if you stay with the dream longer than you could explain by saying "temporary insanity’, will you become damaged goods for any other path? Normally, I’d say this was an absolute no-brainer - if you have a real chance to become one of those who get paid for doing something they love, go for it! Add a spouse, a kid, a debt load, and the grown-up part of me (which I made a habit of ignoring - it worked for a while) starts to hesitate. If one of you would have a real, solid assurance of being able to go back to “hate it, but the money’s good” should the need arise, then tell the grown-up part you’ve got it covered and dive in! ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2013, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critical-life-decision-help-me-choose-career-related/674519/32 "2013-11-22T23:05:26Z")
You’re right. It’s not like choosing to get a PhD in sociology or something. I will still be a lawyer, and to some extent litigation skills are transferable regardless of the area (though that’s less true today than 10 years ago, which was less true than 10 years before that…). But part of the problem is that we’re living in a legal market with a huge glut of supply that isn’t going away soon. So there’s really no guarantee of being able to change positions, even though both my wife and I would theoretically remain good candidates for a number of government and small law firm jobs. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2013, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critical-life-decision-help-me-choose-career-related/674519/33 "2013-11-22T23:13:18Z")
Here’s the thing. You KNOW this will cause financial worries. You only THINK this will make you happier. I tried something similar. Went to work for a NP. Same BS, lower pay. And, you wife has already went that route, so does it need two of you? Instead, make ‘earning more so that my family is more financially secure= me being happy”. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2013, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critical-life-decision-help-me-choose-career-related/674519/34 "2013-11-22T23:22:28Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > You KNOW this will cause financial worries. You only THINK this will make you happier. I actually think the two predictions are much closer together in probability. I very much expect this will cause financial worries, though I don’t know it for certain. It will certainly cause us to change our lifestyle substantially, but we may find we’re able to live within our new means without too much stress. And I very much expect that the job will make me happier. I’m certain it will mean more time with my family, and certain that I will be more personally fulfilling, but some new personality might come along or there might be some dynamic with the board of directors I don’t know about that blows it up. ---
**Author:** ![DMark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@DMark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMark)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2013, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critical-life-decision-help-me-choose-career-related/674519/35 "2013-11-22T23:33:27Z")
I worked for a few years at a non-profit. It was a large organization and both jokingly and derisively nicknamed the “Cadillac” of non-profits for the name recognition, prestige and money involved. However, non-profits have their own problems. At some point, you start to see the dirty laundry and there are often many ethical questions and moral considerations to take into account. There is also “non-profit” burn out - working hard for a cause that seems to be a constant uphill battle. Yes, there were some fine moments, but I - like many others in the organization - eventually left with a bitter taste in my mouth. Just saying - might look grand and glorious now, but things might change drastically once you are in the trenches. Still - I admire your efforts and wish you all the success! ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2013, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critical-life-decision-help-me-choose-career-related/674519/36 "2013-11-22T23:40:17Z")
Go through the last year or two of credit cards & bank statements, and add up all your spending for everything except housing, groceries & gas. Is it significantly less than the pay-cut? Then you probably should not change jobs. However, lots of people take soul-sucking jobs “just long enough to pay off their loans”, but never get around to finding that more satisfying job. You actually have the opportunity. Maybe this is also an opportunity to learn to live smaller. That’s a good thing, it stays with you. Take navy showers, hand wash the dishes, and bake your own multi-grain bread in all the free time you will have not working. Or playing with expensive toys. Or shopping. For more expensive toys. ---
**Author:** ![Lanzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/74df32/32.png) [@Lanzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lanzy)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2013, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critical-life-decision-help-me-choose-career-related/674519/37 "2013-11-22T23:42:11Z")
I would never take this job. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2013, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critical-life-decision-help-me-choose-career-related/674519/38 "2013-11-22T23:52:40Z")
> [@j666](#): > > Go through the last year or two of credit cards & bank statements, and add up all your spending for everything except housing, groceries & gas. Is it significantly less than the pay-cut? Then you probably should not change jobs. I’m a [Mint.com](http://Mint.com) user and we don’t spend much cash, so it’s fairly straightforward for me to look at my finances over time. It will be very very tight, but we’d still be able to keep the lights on. > [@DMark](#): > > Just saying - might look grand and glorious now, but things might change drastically once you are in the trenches. I hear you. These are somewhat familiar trenches to me, having done this kind of work on various fellowships for what adds up to about a year of full-time work. But that obviously doesn’t tell me whether I would burn out or have some random personality conflict in a small office. Always a possibility. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2013, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critical-life-decision-help-me-choose-career-related/674519/39 "2013-11-23T00:31:39Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Yeah. I’m probably being more coy than necessary. It’s a non-profit legal job. This particular organization tends to have three levels for attorneys: staff attorneys, legal directors, and executive directors. It’s roughly 5-10 years to become a legal director for a 50% bump in pay, and 5 or so more to become an executive director for another 50% bump, depending on the circumstances. But there would certainly no guarantee of either advancement, and many people remain staff attorneys for their entire career. > > Also, a significant part of our fixed expenses is debt that will be paid off within a decade. So that will also free up money for retirement savings, etc. I spent about a decade with a non-profit. It is not like you think it’s going to be. It’s a constant battle for funding, trying to squeeze more and more out of fewer and fewer resources. Keep your current job. Financial security is nothing to sneeze at. Make bank while you can, get the kids through college, secure your retirement…and non-profit work will still be available in 20 years if you want it. In the meantime, you can scratch that pro-bono itch by volunteering with a poverty law program. They’ll provide relatively simple things that you can do…uncontested divorces, emancipations, guardianships, wills, etc., freeing up paid staff to do other things. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2013, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critical-life-decision-help-me-choose-career-related/674519/40 "2013-11-23T00:37:52Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > Do it. If you’re good enough that the kind of position you’re describing is yours if you want it, you’re also good enough to make a bunch of money later on if you find you simply must. > > And also, now I’m going to make this weird, but do it, too, because I’ve read your posts, and you ought to be doing the work you’re passionate about. The world doesn’t want you wasted on anything you’re midly unsatisfied by. Wow. That’s exactly what I wanted to post. Also, simplifying one’s life can be a fun challenge in and of itself. We don’t need 3/4 of the things we think we do. But… Isn’t there some way you could also do some consulting on the side? Seriously, there must be. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critical-life-decision-help-me-choose-career-related/674519.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critical-life-decision-help-me-choose-career-related/674519.md?page=3)