Critical Life Decision: Help Me Choose [Career-related]

In My Humble Opinion
41

Man to man, that answer isn’t good enough when you are talking about supporting a wife and family and you may not even be able to reasonably afford the size of the family you want by taking this job. If you are talking about cutting things that close month to month, what happens when the inevitable crisis happens? You already say you can’t support the home you own already on the salary enough to keep that single investment in reasonable repair.

Forget about expensive vacations, what about college savings for your kids and your own retirement not to mention maintaining a decent emergency fund for the long term? It sounds like you won’t be able to sustain it. The lack of excess money will destroy your life slowly over time in ways that you never imagined. It will put strain on your marriage in ways that could lead to divorce. Your child or children will notice that you value other people in the abstract (whatever cause it is) rather than them because you are putting them into financial hardship for something you feel strongly about but probably doesn’t mean a whole lot to them especially when they see you stressed out and their mother pissed off much of the time because you find it hard to pay the bills.

I have literally been in all socioeconomic classes in my life and anything less than upper-middle class sucks. My mother did something similar when I was growing up. She was a teacher for very poor and disadvantaged students, one of the most decorated ones in the U.S. However, she wasn’t a very good mother because she devoted her time to everyone but us and she was a horrible provider because she made crap when I was growing up. She eventually made a lot of money writing and speaking based on her experiences in the trenches but that I still resent her for it because it was nothing but pain and suffering on my side for little apparent reason. You don’t want to be so idealistic that you jeopardize your family’s future and wellbeing for some abstract, idealistic cause. I truly believe charity begins at home and you shouldn’t do anything that puts that primary responsibility at risk.

Don’t take the job. It sounds like the idealistic delusions of someone who is young, ambitious and talented but not yet wise. Jobs like this are more for doe-eyed singles or semi-retirees. You missed the window for the former but you can do something similar much later and more responsibly after your family is secure and the kids are out of the house.

42

If you hated your current job, I would be the first to say “jump”. But if staying at your current job means minor annoyance and financial security, I think that’s probably the best deal you’re going to get.

You haven’t really laid out for us what’s special about this new job. You’re trying to be subtle, of course. But for yourself, can you list any tangible benefits that offset the tangible things you would giving up?

Is it a better commute?
Is it a stepping stone to a different job?
Does it provide training or skills you’ll need later in your career?
Are you making important contacts?
Is it in a neighborhood where you’d like to move?

“It’s my dream job”, isn’t really a tangible. In fact, it’s probably a mirage.

43

That is a good line and probably true. I would like to hear more concrete reasons as well. Privacy concerns are one thing but there is no need to be pointlessly coy in an advice thread unless the only real reasons aren’t logical when spelled out. If the latter is true, the question leads to a self-evident answer. There is no such thing as a “dream job” except when you are sleeping or high. It is called work for a reason and you have to balance out all the factors involved and financial security is a top contender. I have learned that for any attractive sounding job, just like puppy love, the initial infatuation will fade quickly once you actually get experience it day to day for a year or two. After that, you go straight back down to your baseline level of happiness for any reasonably suitable job you can have.

44

A partial list of tangible benefits, for Merneith:

[ul]
[li]Shorter hours[/li][li]More responsibility and independence[/li][li]More opportunity for courtroom work, which is a strength for me[/li][li]More interesting work (which is easier to do than boring work, for me)[/li][li]Not keeping track of every tenth of an hour (!)[/li][li]I choose the clients instead of vice versa[/li][li]More diversity of tasks (current job is very similar tasks each day and will be for a while)[/li][li]Opportunity to do outreach and advocacy in addition to litigation[/li][li]Media appearances, which I enjoy[/li][li]Less travel (no more having to spend weeks away to third-chair some trial in Omaha)[/li][li]More opportunity to explore academic side of law, probably to write some law review articles[/li][/ul]

45

You talk about this new job in kind of (IMO) unrealtistic terms. Generally been my impression NP jobs are usually no better to work at than for profit organizations once you get in the saddle, but you seem to have have determined you will be much happier at this new job regardless of the huge financial and related lifestyle sacrifices.

Unless I was utterly miserable in the much better paying job I don’t think I could switch gears and take that kind of financial beating.

46

Richard:

Is there no way you or your wife could do something on the side to augment the finances? Maybe something a little task oriented you could do at home so you don’t get sucked into overcommitting outside the dream job.

Between you and your wife, I think there must be something if you get creative.

47

Those are all understandable but it sounds like you want to amputate a leg to fix an ingrown toenail. You aren’t the first person to make that mistake. I almost did it once too and other people have already told you that it may not work out nearly as well as you think.

It sounds like you just don’t like parts of your current job. That is normal and reasonable. What you could do instead is to look at each of your points above and figure out much less drastic steps about how to address them other than the rather severe (and I would argue irresponsible) solution you are proposing. Those range from working with your current job and boss(es) to make your job a better fit while still benefitting them to doing pro bono work on the side or changing to a similar employer that is a slighter better fit. I have found that once you are in a field most professional complaints and issues are constant across organizations and time so drastic changes don’t often work out as well as planned unless you are in a truly horrible situation. There is no reason to think that a change to a position that pays less than you are making now will be a net benefit. Most likely, it will be much the same for much less money and only a slightly different set of problems.

48

If it makes you a happier Dad, with more time for his family, doing work you’ll be proud of, and the wife’s on board, then I say forget the money and just do it!

Opportunities for the job you dream of are exceedingly rare, as you acknowledge. I believe you will regret not taking this chance…"…maybe not today. But one day, and maybe for the rest of your life."

And I too think you know it’s the right thing for you. I think you can feel it.

(I am very excited for you, and wishing you (more) enormous good luck!)

49

Are you sure you are on the best loan repayment plan? There are more than seven federal loan repayment plans. The income-based ones can lead to very low payments, and loans are dismissed after 10 years with a nonprofit or government agency (though you do have to pay taxes on the amount dismissed.) I can’t speak to private loans, but federal loans shouldn’t have to be a major burden for anyone.

Millions of people live decent lives on a lot less money than you are likely to be making. I am always a fan of cutting down the big expenses, rather than the little ones- a cheapo car fees less painful than never seeing a movie. Any chance you could move to a less expensive home? Or rent out an extra room? If you do want another child, would you be eligible for any childcare benefits? Have you looked in to a nanny share? Would your kids be eligible for financial aid with your new salary? Would you consider paying for two years, and letting them do work and loans for the other two if they don’t want to go the community college route?

Your experiences are not universal. I’ve held a lot of jobs, and I have a great one right now. It’s pretty much perfect: I am good at it. It’s basically no stress. No deadlines and no real pressure to do anything other than what I do well. I work with a bunch of smart, passionate people who are also good at what they do, but my daily work is independent and separate from any office politics. I am recognized for my work and it’s valued on a senior level. And the work itself is inherently enjoyable- a lot of reading interesting articles, brainstorming ideas, playing with numbers and putting together nice neat little reports. The office is pleasant, with excellent amenities- it’s got the feeling of a luxury hotel. And it’s a nonprofit where my work actually makes a positive impact on the world. I just completed two months of paid leave, and honesty I was happy to get back to work.

Every job will have office politics, obnoxious coworkers, and bureaucracies. But some jobs really do bring some intrinsic satisfaction to some people.

50

How tight? I know you want to maintain some privacy, but if money will be so close that a car repair or a house issue is going to fuck up your finances for an entire year if you take this job, then you have a problem happiness is not going to pay for.

You also mentioned your wife made a similar decision. Does she regret it? Is she as happy as she thought she would be? Do you notice a difference?

I think the reality is that neither option is the worst thing in the world. You won’t be poor by most definitions, so I don’t think you are risking your family’s future. The issue is whether you can deal with being “poor” by your standards.

51

I am happy for you and I always believe you because I trust you but I know I wouldn’t be happy at a non-profit that had no deadlines and had the atmosphere of a luxury hotel. The hypocrisy would get to me very quickly and I am hyper so I wouldn’t like working in a place that had only indirect influence. YMMV.

I work in emergency, big league pharmaceutical operations combined with IT that controls the vast majority of the surgeries in the U.S. for people that get into any type of trauma accident. Some people’s lives depend on the fact that I pick up the phone or not and deal with what they need 24/7. I have never failed but it could happen. It is rewarding in a way but it is also a huge responsibility and not recreational.

My supposed dream job would be a bush pilot in Alaska flying in medical supplies for villages that can’t get them any other way but I keep it just that, a dream. There is no way I am going to do it. I have two young daughters that are charity enough. Let me say it again. charity begins at home. Set yourself and your family up well intellectually and financially and you will have achieved more than 95%+ of the population.

There is such a thing as selfishness through charity and both you and the OP are bordering on it. The rest of us just have to get stuff done to make things work. I don’t want to be sexist but I will be. The man’s job is to make as much money as possible to provide as much money to his family so that his wife and children have the most opportunities available to them. Anything less if a failure in the upper middle class world. Wives will criticize you endlessly in the best case and divorce you in a slightly better case if you can’t do that.

Anyone can dispute that all they want but it is generally true. You can roll the dice and hope you come up a winner but the odds are strictly against you.

52

Well, then. There’s your answer. Turn off the electronics and start baking.

There have been posts chastising you for not putting providing for your family first. They are wrong. Your child requires more than material goods, and your spouse is capable of earning more money if she is dissatisfied with your joint income.

The most important things to give your child[ren] are ethics, personal responsibility, and social responsibility. Staying at a soul sucking job that makes you miserable to be around doesn’t really work, does it?

Furthermore, frugality is an incredibly useful skill, and it is hard to learn later in life; the lesson that buying Cocoa Puffs means you can’t buy When Pigs Fly will stay with the Parkette forever.

I’m sure your wife would agree; perhaps you can bring the computer into the kitchen, and read the post to her. If her feet aren’t too cold.

53

You make some marginally good points except poverty (or personally imposed financial hardship) is not virtue. It sounds admirable when you read that someone else did it but it doesn’t work out that well in practice. Granted, frugality is a good skill for anyone to learn no matter what their relative financial situation.

The basic problem that both you and the OP assume is that the current job is soul-sucking while the dream job provides complete life fulfillment that no amount of money can’t match when there is no real evidence to substantiate that other than a vague pipe dream that, frankly, sounds flaky to an outsider like me. I say that the likelihood of that is close to nil that the new one will end up with a higher level of total satisfaction than the current one unless he is getting raped at work every day or something. It is the same general field and it will come with the same basic set of responsibilities and problems as any other law job. I have lots of lawyer friends. None of them like it all that much but some of them do a necessary service for a decent income. I don’t know what else you can ask. If the question was about switching jobs for some uncertainty for near equal pay, I would say go for it but this one sounds like a very early mid-life crisis disaster in the making.

54

No. That is wrong. There is no problem.

I disagree with you. My values and experience are very different from yours. That is not a problem for me, basic or otherwise.

I will not presume to know what the OP assumes.

55

Also remember there is a huge practical difference in your making money and your wife not making that much as a team vs both of you not making that much. Cash flow eliminates or makes tolerable a lot of stresses and problems that can be life or relationship damaging. Running on fumes financially sounds like an exciting exercise until you try it. If you hit the wrong patch of luck and “stuff happens” it can crush you.

56

You are projecting your own issues on other people. Divorce? The heck? And your not even doing a good job of it, as it sounds like your job does offer intrinsic value.

I have no interest in an overworked miserable husband. I want him to be happy and fulfilled, period. If that means throwing himself in to his career, I’ll support him. If that means he wants to be a stay at home dad, I’ll support him. Whenever he’s faced a career decision, I’ve thoroughly encouraged him to take the positions that give him time with family and have intrinsic value, as that’s what makes him happy and the most attentive, fun, loving husband and father.

Right now we skim the bare edge of being a young yuppy family, and I feel like we live the life of kings. As long as we have health insurance, a place to sleep, and can order delivery now and then, I am going to be happy financially. Poverty is rough, but the low end of upper middle class is nowhere near poverty.

57

One of the most important things I learned doing risk management assessments was that, the easier it is to undo an error, the less of a risk it represents and thus the more readily the risk can be taken on. You can take seemingly outlandish risks if it is a simple matter to undo the worst likely poor outcomes.

So looking ahead, let’s say 3 years, if you accept the job and become unhappy about your constrained finances, how readily could you get a higher paying job and leave?

Alternatively if you have let the job go by and become disenchanted with the job you stayed in how easily can you find a job that you think is as fulfilling as the one you rejected?

58

Richard, ask yourself: why did you get into law?

I’ll tell you why I did. To make a long story short, I (with a bachelor’s degree), found that my job as a technical writer was first on the chopping block when times got tough economically. At such times, when nobody was hiring technical writers, I did what it took to keep a roof over my head. I worked as a warehouse guy, an assemblyman on a factory line, a forklift operator, a truck driver … you get the idea.

In all these jobs, I met and got to know blue-collar guys. They were good, salt-of-the-earth guys, who wanted no more than anybody else: a roof over their heads, gas in the car, enough cash to pay the insurance on the car and rent or mortgage on the house or apartment, and so on. But every now and then, on a break, one of them would complain about how the sonsabitchin’ bank was at their tail over a late payment. Or the cable company was screwing them over when they tried to order NFL Sunday Ticket. Or they’d been tagged for hauling off on a guy who looked a little too long at my boy’s girlfriend. And so on, and so on. None of them would consider a lawyer; lawyers were snobby creeps who had no time for such as them. Mr. Winston Van Snooty had lawyers; but Joe Blow, who worked the assembly line at Consolidated Industries, didn’t deserve one.

I disagreed. These guys needed somebody who doesn’t care what tattoos they have, or what bands they listen to, or what truck they drive. I was one of them once–I know where they come from. So I went to law school, got my degree, and did the bar courses and exams. I got my license to practice.

Now, that’s my clientele. I represent people who more mainstream lawyers wouldn’t touch. I cut them deals on my fees; I have more than once written off bills; and I do a lot of Legal Aid work, which doesn’t pay well. But at the end of the day, I know that I’ve actually helped somebody through the morass that is our legal system. I’m not rich, and I’ll never be–but I am extremely satisfied with what I do

Richard, I cannot tell you what you should do. But if I may make a suggestion, take a good, hard, look at why you got into law. Let the reason for that decision guide you.

59

Yeah, probably. I haven’t given it that much thought yet, but some people in these positions take low-hour adjunct positions at law schools. I could always tutor LSAT courses. Occasional speaking gigs come along for my wife that have honoraria that I’m not including in the budget because they are too sporadic, but that’s probably a mode of budgeting that won’t make sense in the new income world where every penny counts.

Yes. My wife’s loans are essentially nullified by our law school. But we refinanced mine to get them down to a very low interest rate in a way that makes them ineligible for assistance–a calculated risk that will turn out to have been the wrong move if I take this job (though not by a ton, given how much we’ve saved with the rate change).

Short version: We have considered a lot of this, but not all of it.

We bought a modest home with the expectation that this could happen. We don’t have any spare rooms. We could conceivably rent for less, but not without adding a lot more inconvenience and crime. We have looked into nanny share. We would just about break even with daycare, and that’s if we did it under the table (which aside from any ethical questions, we really cannot risk as lawyers). I don’t know about financial aid eligibility–we’re a long way off from college. But I’m not too concerned about college funding. That was just sort of icing on the cake since we have been saving nearly the tax-preferred maximum for retirement.

Not so tight that we wouldn’t have a reasonable emergency cushion. I should not have said earlier that one big expense would become a problem. We will be in a tight, but not unreasonable or especially unstable financial situation most likely.

She loves her job. There is a big difference. She is a much happier person.

I’ve got at these issues a few different ways in earlier replies, but the bottom line is that the odds of the first are waaay higher than the odds of the second.

In this legal market, there are no guarantees. But I’m 90% confident that my wife or I could get a high-paying job within 3 months if the only criterion were getting income to pay for some disaster. Closer to 75% confident that one of us could get a higher-paying job that we’d be content in.

60

I think your odds are better than that: the time frame is years, not months. If, in a year, you decide this was a mistake, you won’t need to get a job ASAP: you will have a job and a sufficient income, after all. You can put out feelers and wait until you get a really good opportunity. If that took a couple years, I think it’d be okay: we aren’t talking about years of unemployment here. So the odds of being able to correct this mistake are really very good.

The naysayers are acting like this is a permanent move, a jump off a cliff. It’s not. It’s an experiment. It’s a fairly reasonable, controlled experiment.