# Critical Reasoning in the USA, Teaching Thereof **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 23, 2023, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critical-reasoning-in-the-usa-teaching-thereof/985961 "2023-06-23T01:38:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2023, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critical-reasoning-in-the-usa-teaching-thereof/985961/101 "2023-09-04T23:36:55Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > When you say “actual science instead of models,” it sounds to me that you don’t understand how scientists work. The models ARE actual science. That’s how science gets done. The scientific method doesn’t establish facts; rather, it rules out things that are not true. The models are an important part of that process, because they use information gained from rather narrower scientific experiences to produce broader knowledge. Yes and the scientists who are creating the models are also admitting to their limitations. We have tons of hard evidence showing the benefits of CO2 to basically all aspects of life and nothing even remotely solid that we are facing an existential threat. We are being told not to ask questions because this is too important to waist time explaining things. Quit reading the science journals and read the actual papers. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2023, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critical-reasoning-in-the-usa-teaching-thereof/985961/102 "2023-09-05T00:02:37Z")
> [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > Yes and the scientists who are creating the models are also admitting to their limitations. We have tons of hard evidence showing the benefits of CO2 to basically all aspects of life and nothing even remotely solid that we are facing an existential threat. We are being told not to ask questions because this is too important to waste time explaining things. Quit reading the science journals and read the actual papers. The existential threat could come from denying the issue and then electing deniers into office in this and the next decade. Eventually, changes that can be managed now (what it is usually what scientists are telling us now, but even your sources refuse to tell you that) will become worse. There is no need for that to take place, and one should make an effort to stop depending on lousy sources of information. As for the models, the big issue in reality is that they are more accurate than before, and the observed danger is that the conservative nature of many scientists shows on many occasions by underestimating the observed rate of change (particularly in the loss of cap ice) > **[How reliable are climate models?](https://skepticalscience.com/climate-models-intermediate.htm)** > > \While there are uncertainties with climate models, they successfully reproduce the past and have made predictions that have been subsequently confirmed by observations.\ Any reasonable person then would realize that if the evidence from the journals points to a bit more increases of temperature in the high latitudes than the estimations from models that therefore, one should ask for the increased application of the changes needed to limiting the increase in CO2. And please stop with your insistence of CO2 being beneficial, you are indeed like the moon landing deniers by insisting on talking about the Van Allen radiation belts. Sure that the knowledge of that can be discussed, but it implies the denial implications were already investigated, and it was found to not be a showstopper to the moon landings, likewise insisting that CO2 will be beneficial to some farmers does not deny that the harm of the CO2 increase due to humans does not exist. > **[The Effects of Climate Change](https://climate.nasa.gov/effects/)** > > Vital Signs of the Planet: Global Climate Change and Global Warming. Long-term effects of global climate change in the United States. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2023, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critical-reasoning-in-the-usa-teaching-thereof/985961/103 "2023-09-05T00:06:31Z")
> [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > We are being told not to ask questions because this is too important to waist time explaining things. Quit reading the science journals and read the actual papers. Wait… who is telling us not to ask questions? And, again, I think you don’t understand how this works. The “actual papers” are what science journals publish. That’s the whole point of writing the papers—to publish them. And the whole point of science journals—to publish papers. Of course CO2 is beneficial to life. Essential, in fact. Who said it wasn’t? That doesn’t mean that more CO2 in the atmosphere is beneficial. You don’t have to believe that the changes in the climate pose an existential threat if you don’t want to. But vague and conspiratorial assertions aren’t going to convince anybody else. The system isn’t simple, so no simplistic understanding is going to work. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2023, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critical-reasoning-in-the-usa-teaching-thereof/985961/104 "2023-09-05T00:14:06Z")
“They”?? _What_ “they”? > [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > We are being told not to ask questions Told by whom, specifically? ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2023, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critical-reasoning-in-the-usa-teaching-thereof/985961/105 "2023-09-05T00:16:37Z")
> **Hijacking post hidden by What Exit?** > > > [@GIGObuster](#): > > > > And please stop with your insistence of CO2 being beneficial, > > Are you saying that it has not been beneficial? ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2023, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critical-reasoning-in-the-usa-teaching-thereof/985961/106 "2023-09-05T00:24:42Z")
> [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > We have tons of hard evidence showing the benefits of CO2 to basically all aspects of life and nothing even remotely solid that we are facing an existential threat. Regarding the former, I would agree that fossil fuels are amazing. They have enabled human advancement and comfort to levels that couldn’t have been dreamed of just a couple of centuries ago. But, you can have too much of a good thing. And it turns out that pumping out _tens of billions of tons_ of a greenhouse gas, _per year_, is “too much”. It’s not about loving or hating oil, it is about not putting our heads in the sand, and addressing a real and growing problem. Regarding the latter, it’s interesting that you use the “existential threat” phrase. Because, there seem to be clear stages to those who refuse to accept the science. First, there’s no climate change at all; hence senators bringing snowballs into the Capitol, or (inaccurate) memes about how plymouth rock is still not flooded over. Then climate change is happening, but it’s just a natural fluctuation or whatever. Then it’s happening, may well be tied to humans’ CO2 emissions, but it’s _not that bad_. Hopefully you don’t directly go to the typical last stage: _it’s too late now_, but at some point maybe acknowledge that we can and should do something to reduce our CO2 emissions before the situation gets (further) out of our control. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2023, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critical-reasoning-in-the-usa-teaching-thereof/985961/107 "2023-09-05T00:25:23Z")
> [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > …and nothing even remotely solid that we are facing an existential threat. I assume you’re able to read and understand graphs? [![](https://fournews-assets-prod-s3b-ew1-aws-c4-pml.s3.amazonaws.com/media/2017/06/global-temperatures-nasa.jpg) ](https://fournews-assets-prod-s3b-ew1-aws-c4-pml.s3.amazonaws.com/media/2017/06/global-temperatures-nasa.jpg) This graph shows global temperature increasing over the past century or more. Would you agree with that? Would you agree that if temperatures were to continue to rise they would be an existential threat? If not, why not? ---
**Author:** ![blondebear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blondebear/32/1022_2.png) [@blondebear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blondebear)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2023, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critical-reasoning-in-the-usa-teaching-thereof/985961/108 "2023-09-05T00:26:21Z")
Skeptoid’s Brian Dunning has a couple of good instructional videos on critical thinking and sussing out pseudoscience and disinformation: [_Here Be Dragons_](https://youtu.be/752V173e31o?feature=shared) and [_Principles of Curiosity_](https://youtu.be/NKY6jJbyCo0?feature=shared) ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2023, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critical-reasoning-in-the-usa-teaching-thereof/985961/109 "2023-09-05T00:32:07Z")
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**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2023, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critical-reasoning-in-the-usa-teaching-thereof/985961/110 "2023-09-05T00:33:29Z")
**Moderating:** Stop with the one line hijacks of this thread. In fact, stop posting in this thread. You have too many posts like this in this thread alone. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2023, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critical-reasoning-in-the-usa-teaching-thereof/985961/111 "2023-09-05T00:34:19Z")
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**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2023, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critical-reasoning-in-the-usa-teaching-thereof/985961/112 "2023-09-05T01:02:27Z")
HBDC just ignored that I did mention later what he selectively omitted in his quote, oh well. @blondebear 's videos are very good regarding the critical reasoning that many do miss. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2023, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critical-reasoning-in-the-usa-teaching-thereof/985961/113 "2023-09-06T04:38:49Z")
> [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > if [CO2] levels fall below 150ppm life of any kind on earth will be in serious peril. Several times in the last 1,000,000 years we have hit levels of 160, most likely contributing to mass extinctions, (I can verify this). This is interesting. At a time when so much of the world is concerned about _increasing_ levels of CO2 it appears you have concerns about the CO2 level _decreasing_. What are your policy proposals for keeping the CO2 levels at a high enough level that we don’t risk mass extinctions? Would you suggest a global policy of burning more hydrocarbons to keep the rate high enough? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2023, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critical-reasoning-in-the-usa-teaching-thereof/985961/114 "2023-09-06T04:53:38Z")
HBDC cannot respond here-see mod note a couple spaces above. ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2023, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critical-reasoning-in-the-usa-teaching-thereof/985961/115 "2023-09-06T14:16:53Z")
There is one book which provides the challenge of critical thinking, and hasn’t been mentioned yet: Chariots of the Gods by van Danniken It’s a classic of bullshit-presented-as-facts. It’s 50 years old, but I think it would still be an entertaining and interesting read for 13-14 year olds. Then help them figure out how to de-bunk it. I remember thinking it was fascinating stuff. I compared it to watching a good magician on stage…you know that somehow the show isn’t true, but you can’t figure out how he did it and how you were fooled… Each chapter in the book is full of oddities that seem unreal. So you could teach it and help the kids figure out how what seems unreal could actually be explained. When I read it as a kid, I remember being confused; I didn’t believe in aliens, but hey, how could people have made those statues on Easter Island. or those rock images in Peru?) And then I became quite proud of myself for realizing, (on my own!) one thing that proved the book wrong: it contained too many examples of totally unrelated mysteries. Sure, maybe one of the mysteries could have happened the way the book describes. But if ancient aliens did lift the heavy stones, why would they then skip over to Peru to make carvings on the plain, and then go to Mount Sinai and build speakers into the wings of the Seraphim angels on the ark? I think it could be a part of a school curriculum that kids would enjoy, and learn how to think at the same time. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2023, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critical-reasoning-in-the-usa-teaching-thereof/985961/116 "2023-09-08T00:44:12Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Distrust of “science” and “experts” is an integral part of their tribal identity. There’s no conversation possible any more. > > Conspiracy beliefs and anti science and anti intellectualism have been normalized. It’s broad. ..yep. Here is something that popped up on my radar a few days ago. (Disclaimer: I can’t vouch for the research here, however the polling company seem legit) > [@The Center for Countering Digital Hate](#): > > 49% of adults agreed with four or more conspiracy theory statements – rising to 60% of 13-17-year-olds. > > This was even more pronounced for teenagers who were heavy users of social media, meaning that they spend four or more hours a day on any single social media platform. 69% of 13-17 year olds with a high degree of social media use agreed with four or more conspiracy statements. > > 43% of teens agreed with the statement, “Jewish people have a disproportionate amount of control over the media, politics and the economy”. This rose to 54% among teens who are heavy social media users. > > 43% of teens believed the statement “Mass migration of people into the western world is a deliberate policy of multiculturalism and part of a scheme to replace white people”. This rose to 52% among teens who are heavy social media users. > **[Belief in conspiracy theories higher among teenagers than adults, as majority...](https://counterhate.com/blog/belief-in-conspiracy-theories-higher-among-teenagers-than-adults-as-majority-of-americans-support-social-media-reform-new-polling-finds/)** > > CCDH's polling shows that 49% of Americans agree with at least 4 conspiracy statements. This number is even higher between teenagers. We are now living in a world where disinformation has been mass-produced and weaponized, and It’s had a massive destabilizing effect. Which in itself, paradoxically, sounds like a conspiracy theory. But you just have to look at the rise of everything from climate-change denial, anti-vaxxers, the anti-trans movement, brexit, MAGA, Andrew Tate, to see how endemic it all is. A course or two in “critical reasoning” isn’t enough to combat any of this. Not when the line between “truth” and “fiction” have become so blurred. The sheer weight of it all is relentless. And thanks to the algorithm, because everyone effectively curates what shows up in our information ecosystem, for those of us who are actually “critical thinkers” much of this disinformation we will never ever see. ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2023, 8:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critical-reasoning-in-the-usa-teaching-thereof/985961/117 "2023-09-08T08:47:58Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > There is one book which provides the challenge of critical thinking, and hasn’t been mentioned yet: > Chariots of the Gods by van Danniken > It’s a classic of bullshit-presented-as-facts. > > It’s 50 years old, but I think it would still be an entertaining and interesting read for 13-14 year olds. > Then help them figure out how to de-bunk it. > [@chappachula](#): > > I think it could be a part of a school curriculum that kids would enjoy, and learn how to think at the same time. That’s exactly what my German class did in 9th grade or so which was around 1983. Our teacher presented an excerpt from one of von Däniken’s books, and we had to analyze it and point out all the bullshit. Our German teacher also taught history, so this was an important lesson for him to teach us. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2023, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critical-reasoning-in-the-usa-teaching-thereof/985961/118 "2023-09-09T12:26:10Z")
Germany is so … thoughtfully civilized. I think that if a teacher tried that in the USA most of the kids would buy VOn Dannekin’s BS hook, line, and sinker with the only result being the teacher will have recruited 30 more people to the CT/QAnon worldview. ---
**Author:** ![Common\_Tater](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/common_tater/32/13846_2.png) [@Common\_Tater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Common_Tater)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2023, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critical-reasoning-in-the-usa-teaching-thereof/985961/119 "2023-09-09T13:17:47Z")
Eh, they have their share of nutbars. I was first made aware of Dave Ickes and his “Lizard People Rule the World” book when I was stationed over there. I was a little amused, they told me his book was illegal. I kept it for a suitable period of time to be polite and returned it. ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2023, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critical-reasoning-in-the-usa-teaching-thereof/985961/120 "2023-09-09T13:25:09Z")
> [@Common\_Tater](#): > > Eh, they have their share of nutbars. No doubt about that. They all came out of the closet during the pandemic, especially the “alternative” medicine and/or new age crowd. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critical-reasoning-in-the-usa-teaching-thereof/985961.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critical-reasoning-in-the-usa-teaching-thereof/985961.md?page=7)