# Critique my rage at the administration **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 15, 2005, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-my-rage-at-the-administration/331104 "2005-11-15T02:18:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-my-rage-at-the-administration/331104/21 "2005-11-15T19:09:00Z")
> [@Gangster Octopus](#): > > Huh? That cite does not discuss rape, sodomy or murder, nor does it take place at Abu Ghraib. It wasn’t meant too…it was meant to show that such things are still going on in Iraq by the Iraqi’s. If you wish a cite for ‘rape, sodomy or murder’ in Abu Ghraib I can probably dig on us. I remember several talking about things done by the Iraqi guards in the prison which the US soldiers kind of looked the other way. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-my-rage-at-the-administration/331104/22 "2005-11-15T19:16:13Z")
It seems there are accusations out there in the ether of sodomy and rape ( I still haven’t seen anything about murder), so to speak, but I couldn’t find anything concrete at either Amensty International or on Wikipedia. Maybe better wording might be “Abu Ghraib (a human rights nightmare of torture, including allegations by some of rape and sodomy)”. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-my-rage-at-the-administration/331104/23 "2005-11-15T19:32:20Z")
Some of the pictures had the inmates pose to simulate sodomy. I suppose anyone who died there could be said to have been “murdered”. I’m not aware of any rapes, although I wouldn’t be surprised if there were allegations. ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_The\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ba8739/32.png) [@Bill\_The\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_The_Cat)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-my-rage-at-the-administration/331104/24 "2005-11-15T19:39:12Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > … hung up on the bulletin board as this month’s Nutjob Letter To The Editor. And then get thrown in the trash next month as its replacement goes up. I’ve seen some really bad letters actually published, and I don’t think **HPL** ’s letter is that bad. The chances of it getting published are probably higher if he’s in the minority opinion (regionally). Editors seem to have a need to “balance” their letters. In Republican-dominated regions, typically you’ll get 5-6 normal pro-Republican letters, plus one foaming-at-the-mouth letter from the either side. Of course, this makes Democrats look like they’re **all** foaming at the mouth, but since most of the readers already believe that anyway, it’s not a big deal. Likewise, the opposite thing happens in Democratic areas - the few Republicans who write in are almost always selected, so the Republican letters tend to be more radical. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-my-rage-at-the-administration/331104/25 "2005-11-15T19:39:19Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > I’m not aware of any rapes, although I wouldn’t be surprised if there were allegations. I thought they were substantiated. Am I wrong? BTW, it was Iraqi guards doing the raping, not the Americans. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-my-rage-at-the-administration/331104/26 "2005-11-15T19:50:18Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > I thought they were substantiated. Am I wrong? I don’t know. I don’t remember any, but I may have missed it. Not saying you’re wrong. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-my-rage-at-the-administration/331104/27 "2005-11-15T19:58:23Z")
I thought this was the board where allegations (if properly cited from a web friendly news source, and if against the US) were taken as gospel. 😉 I recall there were a lot of allegations of prisoner abuse (torture, sodomy/rape, ‘murder’, etc) directed at the Iraqi guards at AG…and a lot of physical evidence of more psychological type torture directly by the US. I thought there were some confirmed examples of the abuse by the Iraqi guards but I cant seem to find any in google atm. Maybe the story is too old now or maybe they never were confirmed…not really sure. At any rate, I think John’s revisions would be the best bet to get the OP’s message actually read (if not perhaps published) in his/her local paper. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Digital\_Stimulus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Digital\_Stimulus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Digital_Stimulus)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-my-rage-at-the-administration/331104/28 "2005-11-15T20:41:09Z")
Bravo, **John Mace**. Very concise. Just make sure to run a spell-check before they’re used (particularly “counsel”, not “council”). ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-my-rage-at-the-administration/331104/29 "2005-11-15T20:46:41Z")
In a related vein, here’s an editorial that treads similar ground as the OP’s: [**A betrayal of our most precious values**](http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20051112/1041927.asp) “We do not torture,” says the president. I can remember when that went without saying. ---
**Author:** ![HPL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3da27b/32.png) [@HPL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HPL)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-my-rage-at-the-administration/331104/30 "2005-11-15T20:53:37Z")
> [@Gangster Octopus](#): > > It seems there are accusations out there in the ether of sodomy and rape ( I still haven’t seen anything about murder), so to speak, but I couldn’t find anything concrete at either Amensty International or on Wikipedia. Maybe better wording might be “Abu Ghraib (a human rights nightmare of torture, including allegations by some of rape and sodomy)”. I found this through wikipedia.[The Taguba report](http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/US_Army_15-6_Report_of_Abuse_of_Prisoners_in_Iraq#FINDINGS_AND_RECOMMENDATIONS_.28PART_ONE.29) It backs up some of the allegations. > [@Taguba Report](#): > > 1. (U) In addition, several detainees also described the following acts of abuse, which under the circumstances, **I find credible** based on the clarity of their statements and supporting evidence provided by other witnesses (ANNEX 26): > > a. (U) Breaking chemical lights and pouring the phosphoric liquid on detainees; > b. (U) Threatening detainees with a charged 9mm pistol; > c. (U) Pouring cold water on naked detainees; > d. (U) Beating detainees with a broom handle and a chair; > e. (U) Threatening male detainees with rape; > f. (U) Allowing a military police guard to stitch the wound of a detainee who was injured after being slammed against the wall in his cell; > g. (U) Sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick. > h. (U) Using military working dogs to frighten and intimidate detainees with threats of attack, and in one instance actually biting a detainee. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-my-rage-at-the-administration/331104/31 "2005-11-15T21:01:54Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > “We do not torture,” says the president. I can remember when that went without saying. True…because they just didn’t talk about it. It was kind of a given. Did you figure that because it wasn’t talked about it didn’t happen? The reason its such a big deal now is that we’ve moved on from our earlier barbaric days (somewhat), that our news media, for all the bitching on both sides, is much more pervasive and much more responsive (and inclined) to getting us such stories. Its not acceptable anymore…thats why its big news. We, as a society (and I’m including Europe here) have raised the bar on what is and isn’t ‘torture’ to the point that you have to define just what you mean…physical torture, torture that can perminently harm, psychological torture, humiliation, sexual abuse, etc. Judging by stories I hear about prisons in countries like France I’d hazard a guess that we ain’t alone in the enlightened west in doing such things either. What we allowed the Iraqi’s to do though…that pretty much goes beyond the pale IMO. However, your ‘I can remember when that went without saying’ is simply crapola…standard issue for you. As if the US (and Europe :eek: ) had spotless records concerning such abuse, and its only since GW took the reigns that we have become bloodthirsty barbarians. Wake up…we have always been barbarians, but the fact that these things are coming out that have always been with us, and the fact that they shock and disturb us…THAT is progress my friend. Maybe there is hope for our species after all. YMMV and all that. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-my-rage-at-the-administration/331104/32 "2005-11-15T21:13:26Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Some of the pictures had the inmates pose to simulate sodomy. I suppose anyone who died there could be said to have been “murdered”. I’m not aware of any rapes, although I wouldn’t be surprised if there were allegations. From [this article in Rolling Stone](http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/_/rnd/1091358611905/has-player/true/id/6388256/version/6.0.12.687?rnd=1132087151215&has-player=true&version=6.0.12.872) (bolding mine). . . > [@](#): > > The new classified military documents offer a chilling picture of what happened at Abu Ghraib – including **detailed reports that U.S. troops and translators sodomized and raped Iraqi prisoners**. The secret files – 106 “annexes” that the Defense Department withheld from the Taguba report last spring – include nearly 6,000 pages of internal Army memos and e-mails, reports on prison riots and escapes, and sworn statements by soldiers, officers, private contractors and detainees. The files depict a prison in complete chaos. Prisoners were fed bug-infested food and forced to live in squalid conditions; detainees and U.S. soldiers alike were killed and wounded in nightly mortar attacks; and loyalists of Saddam Hussein served as guards in the facility, apparently smuggling weapons to prisoners inside. > > \ > > In the files, prisoner after prisoner at Abu Ghraib describes acts of torture that Taguba found “credible based on the clarity of their statements and supporting evidence provided by other witnesses.” The abuses took place at the Hard Site, a two-story cinder-block unit at the sprawling prison that housed Iraqi criminals and insurgents, not members of Al Qaeda or other terrorist organizations. In one sworn statement, Kasim Mehaddi Hilas, detainee number 151108, said **he witnessed a translator referred to only as Abu Hamid raping a teenage boy**. “I saw Abu Hamid, who was wearing the military uniform, putting his dick in the little kid’s ass,” Hilas testified. “The kid was hurting very bad.” A female soldier took pictures of the rape, Hilas said. And just a few weeks ago, a judge ordered the release of photos that were said (by an unidentified “Republican Senator”) to depict “rape and murder.” [Article](http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1001218842). As of a year ago, there have been as many as 10 U.S. troops who’ve been charged with murder, among them “[f]our soldiers accused of smothering an Iraqi general during an interrogation last fall.” And “[one] soldier was sentenced to 25 years in prison last month after pleading guilty to murder in the death of an Iraqi National Guard member.” [CBS News Article](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/09/25/iraq/main645601.shtml). No exaggerating needed. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-my-rage-at-the-administration/331104/33 "2005-11-15T21:55:17Z")
> [@Digital Stimulus](#): > > Bravo, **John Mace**. Very concise. > > Just make sure to run a spell-check before they’re used (particularly “counsel”, not “council”). Glad you liked it. Speling has nevir bin my strong soot! ---
**Author:** ![Digital\_Stimulus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Digital\_Stimulus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Digital_Stimulus)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-my-rage-at-the-administration/331104/34 "2005-11-15T22:08:55Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > > [@John Mace](#): > > > > I’m not aware of any rapes, although I wouldn’t be surprised if there were allegations. > > I thought they were substantiated. Am I wrong? > [@Shayna](#): > > And just a few weeks ago, a judge ordered the release of photos that were said (by an unidentified “Republican Senator”) to depict “rape and murder.” I apologize in advance for the (potential) hijack, but this is one reason those photos _should_ be released, image be damned. Lest we once again hear the “fraternity prank” dismissals. (Not implying you, **John Mace** , but those who would make such dismissals.) ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-my-rage-at-the-administration/331104/35 "2005-11-15T22:53:33Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > “We do not torture,” says the president. I can remember when that went without saying. > > True…because they just didn’t talk about it. So would this be covered under “compassionate conservatism” or “Christian values”? And off the top of my head, I don’t remember anyone getting tortured under the Clinton Administration. I suppose you _could_ count the administrations of Reagan and Bush Sr., though, if you count the [abuses by the Nicaraguan _contras._](http://www.nicaraguasc.org.uk/archive/remembering%20Ronald%20Reagan.htm) (What _is_ it with Republicans and torture anyway? Is it some sort of kinky BDSM by proxy? Does it have anything to do with Scooter Libby’s bestiality porn? What?) ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2005, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-my-rage-at-the-administration/331104/36 "2005-11-16T00:00:51Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Glad you liked it. Speling has nevir bin my strong soot! I am never editing this thread again. It bit me. I may have to get rabies shots. ---
**Author:** ![butter\_pie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/aca169/32.png) [@butter\_pie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/butter_pie)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2005, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-my-rage-at-the-administration/331104/37 "2005-11-16T00:38:56Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > If I were the editor of a newspaper and that letter showed up in my inbox, it would be scanned, sent around to everyone in the office via e-mail to give them a good laugh, then thrown in the trash. > > Or possibly hung up on the bulletin board as this month’s Nutjob Letter To The Editor. And then get thrown in the trash next month as its replacement goes up. Yeah, none of that blatant left-wing media bias for your paper, no sir. How’s that working out for you, by the way? Your local media still talking about dogs mauling five-year-olds instead of praising our Glorious Leader? You written them any letters about it? Bitched at any technology and internet news services about not covering our Moral and Upstanding Flawless Government lately? Now there’s something worthy of scanning and sending around the office for a laugh. A real fucking hoot. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2005, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-my-rage-at-the-administration/331104/38 "2005-11-16T00:46:13Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > So would this be covered under “compassionate conservatism” or “Christian values”? I’d say it would be under ‘Reality: Take your head out of your ass and try it sometime’. > [@rjung](#): > > And off the top of my head, I don’t remember anyone getting tortured under the Clinton Administration. I suppose you could count the administrations of Reagan and Bush Sr., though, if you count the abuses by the Nicaraguan contras. Does Bosnia ring a bell? Even if NATO didn’t torture anyone directly, you can bet other folks aligned on ‘our side’ in Bosnia did. I’ll let you look it up yourself (though I doubt you would). How would we know if any direct torture happened under Clinton in any case? There wasn’t a war on, and whatever they were or weren’t doing to fight the growing terrorist threat happened covertly. Not like they were going to advertise torturing folks, especially since it would probably have been the CIA that did it. You seriously have a partisan problem rjung if you think that torture is restricted to Republican presidents…or restricted to the US for that matter. > [@rjung](#): > > (What is it with Republicans and torture anyway? Is it some sort of kinky BDSM by proxy? Does it have anything to do with Scooter Libby’s bestiality porn? What?) Gods know what the fuck you are talking about here…I suppose its part of your tape recorded rant drive by style…rjungs book on posting, volume 2 page 309, When you don’t have anything to say purposely misread a poster who you don’t agree with, then rant on about something totally meaningless with a lot of hand waving. Hows it working out for you? -XT ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2005, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-my-rage-at-the-administration/331104/39 "2005-11-16T02:44:40Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > If I were the editor of a newspaper and that letter showed up in my inbox, it would be scanned, sent around to everyone in the office via e-mail to give them a good laugh, then thrown in the trash. Yeah, because the issues his letter refers to are fucking hysterical! You don’t see the hypocracy in “moral” people saying torture is neccesary? ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2005, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-my-rage-at-the-administration/331104/40 "2005-11-16T02:45:48Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > Yeah, because the issues his letter refers to are fucking hysterical! > > You don’t see the hypocracy in “moral” people saying torture is neccesary? \*hypocrisy [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-my-rage-at-the-administration/331104.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-my-rage-at-the-administration/331104.md?page=3)