# Critique the design of the U.S. flag **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 20, 2011, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-the-design-of-the-u-s-flag/596947 "2011-09-20T14:29:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Sacrilegium](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f05b48/32.png) [@Sacrilegium](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sacrilegium)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2011, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-the-design-of-the-u-s-flag/596947/1 "2011-09-20T14:29:28Z")
I’ve come to realize that, aesthetically, I don’t really like the American flag. I’m not crazy about the colors, and I’m even less crazy about the design itself. I’m sure you know what it looks like, but just in case, [here](http://ualoo.com/images/us.gif) is a picture of it. I think the [Union Jack](http://ualoo.com/images/unionjack2.jpg) and even [the confederate flag](http://ualoo.com/images/confederat.gif) make better use of the same colors. But I don’t know. Maybe I just like symmetry. I’m no designer. For you design geeks, what do you make of the U.S. flag from a purely aesthetic viewpoint? Take away the symbolism behind it - do you like the way it looks? ---
**Author:** ![Todderbob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Todderbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todderbob)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2011, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-the-design-of-the-u-s-flag/596947/2 "2011-09-20T14:57:21Z")
What you linked to is not the confederate flag. It’s the confederate **battle** flag. When you see someone fly it, they’re not flying the flag of confederate ideals, they’re flying the confederate battle flag, a flag under which half a million Americans died and almost as many were injured. They’re flying the flag of a war, and of death. Not of ideals and independence. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2011, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-the-design-of-the-u-s-flag/596947/3 "2011-09-20T15:00:31Z")
For my money the only thing a flag needs to be is recognizable, not stylish, but yeah … it definitely clashes. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2011, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-the-design-of-the-u-s-flag/596947/4 "2011-09-20T15:12:15Z")
I completely agree as to what **Todderbob** said. Here are the Confederate national flags (they averaged a new one almost every year during the CSA’s fortunately brief existence): [Flags of the Confederate States of America - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederate_National_Flag#National_flags) Also, the proportions of the British Union Jack you posted are incorrect: [Union Jack - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_jack) Patriotism aside, I like the design of the American flag. It’s distinctive and makes a clear statement. There’s a lot of history behind it. Here are some of my favorite historic American flags: > **[Betsy Ross flag](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betsy_ross_flag)** > > The Betsy Ross flag is a reconstructed early design for the flag of the United States, which is conformant to the Flag Act of 1777 and has red stripes outermost and stars arranged in a circle. These details elaborate on the 1777 act, passed early in the American Revolutionary War, which specified 13 alternating red and white horizontal stripes and 13 white stars in a blue canton. Its name stems from the story, once widely believed, that shortly after the 1777 act, upholsterer and flag maker Be... > **[File:Bunker Hill Flag.svg](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bunker_Hill_Flag.svg)** > > Original file ‎(SVG file, nominally 720 × 480 pixels, file size: 2 KB) > 8 February 2008 (original upload date) > DevinCook at English Wikipedia > Click on a date/time to view the file as it appeared at that time. > **[Serapis flag](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serapis_flag)** > > Serapis is a name given to an unconventional, early United States ensign flown from the captured British frigate Serapis. > At the 1779 Battle of Flamborough Head, U.S. Navy Captain John Paul Jones captured the Serapis, but his own ship, the Bonhomme Richard, sank, and her ensign had been blown from the mast into the sea during the battle. Jones, now commanding the Serapis without having a U.S. ensign to fly on it, sailed to the island port of Texel, which belonged to the neutral Dutch United Pro... > **[Flag of Easton, Pennsylvania](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easton_flag)** > > The Easton flag is an early American flag used in modern times to represent Easton, Pennsylvania. > The flag is designed differently from more common flags of the United States in that it has 13 (8-pointed) stars in a blue field, with 13 stripes in the canton. The flag's design is consistent with the 1777 Flag Act, which does not specify the location of the stars and stripes: "That the flag of the thirteen United States be thirteen stripes, alternate red and white; that the union be thirteen stars... > **[Fort Sumter Flag](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Sumter_Flag)** > > The Fort Sumter Flag is a historic United States flag with a distinctive, diamond-shaped pattern of 33 stars. When the main flagpole was felled by a shot during the bombardment of Fort Sumter by Confederate forces, Second Lieutenant Norman J. Hall rushed to retrieve the flag and remount it on a makeshift pole. The flag was lowered by Major Robert Anderson on April 13, 1861 when he surrendered Fort Sumter, in the harbor of Charleston, South Carolina, at the outset of the American Civil War. > An... [![Imgur](https://live.staticflickr.com/4019/4565249067_a9784906b6_b.jpg "35 Star Flag Civil War 1863-1865 Double Circle Pattern") ](https://www.flickr.com/photos/artimovich/4565249067/) ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2011, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-the-design-of-the-u-s-flag/596947/5 "2011-09-20T15:12:30Z")
I used to think it was pretty meh, until one summer when it just struck me – it’s a beautiful design. But let’s face it, it’s no Bhutan or Sri Lanka. ---
**Author:** ![Scuba\_Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Scuba\_Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scuba_Ben)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2011, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-the-design-of-the-u-s-flag/596947/6 "2011-09-20T15:14:41Z")
In counterpoint to **Todderbob** ’s note of the Confederate battle flag not being the CSA state flag, the US flag is vexillogically a _national flag and ensign_, which means it is used as a battle flag as well as all noncombat uses. I like our flag. Mainly because it’s our flag, gosh darn it. ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2011, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-the-design-of-the-u-s-flag/596947/7 "2011-09-20T15:25:57Z")
> [@Todderbob](#): > > What you linked to is not the confederate flag. It’s the confederate **battle** flag. When you see someone fly it, they’re not flying the flag of confederate ideals, they’re flying the confederate battle flag, a flag under which half a million Americans died and almost as many were injured. > > They’re flying the flag of a war, and of death. Not of ideals and independence. The origin of the flag is correct, but the motivation is not as clear. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2011, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-the-design-of-the-u-s-flag/596947/8 "2011-09-20T15:29:00Z")
Bright colors, visible at a distance. Recognizable pattern. Distinctive design. Easy to describe symbolism. The only problem I have with the U.S. flag is that there are too many stars and they tend to look cluttered at a distance. But that’s not a problem with the basic design – we just need to combine a few states. ---
**Author:** ![Todderbob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Todderbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todderbob)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2011, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-the-design-of-the-u-s-flag/596947/9 "2011-09-20T15:29:13Z")
> [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](#): > > The origin of the flag is correct, but the motivation is not as clear. I didn’t address motivation. ---
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2011, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-the-design-of-the-u-s-flag/596947/10 "2011-09-20T15:35:13Z")
While I will agree that the American flag has become iconic at this point, I also agree with the OP that it isn’t particularly creative or inspiring in its own right without historical and patriotic hidsight. Personally, I’d have prefered to have broken away from the red, white, and blue colors of the British flag as a stronger sense of separating ourselves symbolically. I’m not sure what colors we perhaps should have chosen, but I think we could have put some thought into it. I also think the symbolism of 13 is just a little too much. We didn’t need both 13 stars and 13 stripes on the original flag. If we were going to choose to incorporate numerology, why don’t we also have some play on say July 4 or 1776 or the like? I do like that the overall design is fairly simplistic, whereas some flags have complex designs on them. However, I dislike that the flag lacks symmetry. For instance, to compare to my state’s flag, Virginia, I think our state’s flag has nice symmetry but the seal is just too complex, so it has sort of the opposite problem. That’s one thing I think the British have right, as the OP points out, in that it has nice symmetry and isn’t overly complex. I’m also not a fan of the idea that our flag needs to be changed every time we add new states. Does any other country have so many revisions of their flag as we do, not including initial time when they were deciding on an official design? For some possible alternative designs. What if we had an eagle design? We could work both the 13 and 1776 numerology into the flag by including 13 stars broken up into one row or group of 7 and another of 6. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2011, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-the-design-of-the-u-s-flag/596947/11 "2011-09-20T16:57:37Z")
My biggest complaint with the American flag is that it’s too cluttered: A good flag, you should be able to draw it by hand and get all the basic elements right. Even if you know that it’s 13 stripes and 50 stars, how many people know which stripe the blue field comes in at? What’s the pattern of the stars? And even if you know, will you be able to do the whole thing without your hand cramping up? My second criticism is that it doesn’t really do a good job of symbolizing the country. A good flag, someone who’s never seen it before, but who’s otherwise familiar with the various countries (or states, or whatever) should be able to make a pretty good guess of which country it represents. Though I’ll grant that few flags meet this standard. Flags that I think meet these standards include Canada, Japan, New Mexico, and Alaska. All of them are simple designs, and all tell you something about the place they stand for. Canada is a place with a lot of maples, hence a maple leaf. Japan is Land of the Rising Sun. New Mexico is the land of the Navajo, and very sunny, hence a Navajo sun-symbol. Alaska is way up north, hence the most distinctive northern constellation. A tricolor like Ireland or Italy (which look almost identical) is good on the simplicity front, but fail on recognizability. A detailed scene like Mexico’s is good for recognizability, but is too complicated. There’s really no excuse for being both complicated and unrecognizable. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2011, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-the-design-of-the-u-s-flag/596947/12 "2011-09-20T17:14:36Z")
> [@Blaster\_Master](#): > > …Personally, I’d have prefered to have broken away from the red, white, and blue colors of the British flag as a stronger sense of separating ourselves symbolically. I’m not sure what colors we perhaps should have chosen, but I think we could have put some thought into it… Here’s an alternative: [Flag of the Green Mountain Boys - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_the_Green_Mountain_Boys) Or the Continental Flag, thought to have been flown during the Battle of Bunker Hill: [http://www.usflagdepot.com/store/media/continental.gif](http://www.usflagdepot.com/store/media/continental.gif) > [@Blaster\_Master](#): > > …For some possible alternative designs. What if we had an eagle design? We could work both the 13 and 1776 numerology into the flag by including 13 stars broken up into one row or group of 7 and another of 6. For an eagle (grasping a peace pipe, no less), here’s the John C. Fremont flag of 1841: [http://www.flagofarms.com/images/designs/Fremont\_Flag.jpg](http://www.flagofarms.com/images/designs/Fremont_Flag.jpg) Or I kinda like the Space Age flag from the paperback cover of Tom Wolfe’s _The Right Stuff_: [http://www.sci.fi/~fta/The\_Right\_Stuff.jpg](http://www.sci.fi/~fta/The_Right_Stuff.jpg) As for numerology, be careful what you wish for. Here’s a popular U.S. Centennial flag from 1876: [http://www.loeser.us/flags/images/spanish/centennial\_flag\_1876.jpg](http://www.loeser.us/flags/images/spanish/centennial_flag_1876.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2011, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-the-design-of-the-u-s-flag/596947/13 "2011-09-20T17:18:53Z")
It’s a little cluttered, but other than that it’s a pretty good flag. Not too many colours, simple symbols, no words or numbers, very recognizable. There’s a reason it’s much-copied. By comparison, most state flags are atrocious. (There are a few exceptions, like South Carolina or New Mexico.) Generally speaking, the further you go down the governmental chain of command, the worse the flags get. This is true in Canada as well; the national flag is beautiful but many of the provincial flags are cluttered and noisy, with just the odd exception, like Quebec. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2011, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-the-design-of-the-u-s-flag/596947/14 "2011-09-20T17:22:54Z")
One point to make about the Union Jack’s symmetry is that it only has 180 degree rotational symmetry. If you fold it either horizontally or vertically, St. Andrew’s cross and St. Patrick’s cross do not overlap themselves but rather each other. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2011, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-the-design-of-the-u-s-flag/596947/15 "2011-09-20T17:46:11Z")
I think the US flag would be a lot more appealing if the blue chunk with the stars were the entire top half and not just a quadrant. I’m sure someone has drawn that somewhere, but I can’t find an image. It would still be distinctive but more symmetrical and also more logical. PS: Oh, and off topic, the UK flag could be improved both symbolically and aesthetically by placing the Welsh dragon in the centre. ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2011, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-the-design-of-the-u-s-flag/596947/16 "2011-09-20T17:53:15Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > There are a few exceptions, like South Carolina… I’ve always thought my home state’s flag was lovely. Thanks for mentioning it. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2011, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-the-design-of-the-u-s-flag/596947/17 "2011-09-20T18:33:50Z")
Some earlier flag threads that may be of interest. Coolest national flags: [Coolest national flags - In My Humble Opinion - Straight Dope Message Board](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=336065) Coolest state flags: [Coolest U.S. state flag - In My Humble Opinion - Straight Dope Message Board](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=335116) Coolest city flags: [Coolest U.S. City Flag - In My Humble Opinion - Straight Dope Message Board](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=335241) ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2011, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-the-design-of-the-u-s-flag/596947/18 "2011-09-20T18:47:13Z")
The only US flags that are attractive are those of the states of Tennessee and New Mexico. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2011, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-the-design-of-the-u-s-flag/596947/19 "2011-09-20T18:56:48Z")
> [@Ephemera](#): > > The only US flags that are attractive are those of the states of Tennessee and New Mexico. I always really liked Maryland myself. Yeah it’s heraldic arms, but still. ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2011, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-the-design-of-the-u-s-flag/596947/20 "2011-09-20T18:59:03Z")
> [@Ephemera](#): > > The only US flags that are attractive are those of the states of Tennessee and New Mexico. You’re welcome to your opinion, of course. Personally, I’ve always thought Tennessee’s flag looked like [Paul Stanley](http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_kFTy7XP165c/THVD8D5ZO5I/AAAAAAAAAPI/wl6Jrnyvc3E/s1600/Kiss-Paul_Stanley-Frontal.jpg)’s bowling ball. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-the-design-of-the-u-s-flag/596947.md?page=2)