# Critique the design of the U.S. flag **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 20, 2011, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-the-design-of-the-u-s-flag/596947 "2011-09-20T14:29:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![rowrrbazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rowrrbazzle/32/414_2.png) [@rowrrbazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rowrrbazzle)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2011, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-the-design-of-the-u-s-flag/596947/61 "2011-09-22T02:52:22Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > > [@Robot Arm](#): > > > > _Look at the colors you chose > > The best you could do, I suppose > > A peppermint stripe with royal blue > > The same as the British colors, too > > Now how will we tell whose side is who? > > Look at the colors you chose_ > > > > From the great Stan Freberg. > > _Why couldn’t it have been puce? > Lavender over chartreuse!_ > > “Everybody Wants to Be an Art Director” https://www.youtube.com/embed/PUCe5OaKldM?feature=oembed&wmode=opaque&start=396 ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2011, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-the-design-of-the-u-s-flag/596947/62 "2011-09-22T05:13:22Z")
I think those are plows on the NJ flag. I’m not sure what the story is behind the hat, though. Oh, and you forgot to mention that it has writing on it, too. ---
**Author:** ![installLSC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/54ee81/32.png) [@installLSC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/installLSC)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2011, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-the-design-of-the-u-s-flag/596947/63 "2011-09-22T06:43:45Z")
> [@Green\_Bean](#): > > One of whom is holding a stick with a hat on it. I’m pretty sure that’s a [Phrygian or Liberty Cap](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrygian_cap), a common symbol in the early days of the American republic. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2011, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-the-design-of-the-u-s-flag/596947/64 "2011-09-22T07:16:23Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > So what are folks’ thoughts on the Libyan flag? > > [Scotty voice] > It’s green. > [/Scotty voice] [Not any more, it isn’t.](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f5/Flag_of_Libya_%281951%29.svg/500px-Flag_of_Libya_%281951%29.svg.png) Not _just_ green, anyway. The significance of the green, and several points of flag design mentioned here, were addressed in the thread [**OK vexillologists, out there! Name your favorite flags and your most disliked flags**](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=562263) ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2011, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-the-design-of-the-u-s-flag/596947/65 "2011-09-22T07:32:11Z")
> [@Raguleader](#): > > The flag is worn on the right sleeve because the right side is the place of honor/seniority. I’m pretty sure that it’s because the unit patch is on the left sleeve. You’ll notice that most military pins, badges and patches are placed on the left; the flag was simply placed in the available empty real estate. In clothing, the left is the “heart” side, and thus the place of honor. ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2011, 9:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-the-design-of-the-u-s-flag/596947/66 "2011-09-22T09:29:51Z")
[QUOTE=pulykamell] Personally, from a design perspective, I think it’s great. The stars are a bit much, but, otherwise, everything about is good: no boring static symmetry, good choice of contrasting primary colors, distinctive design elements, identifiable at any size or distance (well, I suppose there’s a far-off chance it might be confused with the Liberian flag at a long, long distance). In my opinion, it’s more than just a successful design. It’s great. **Now, the national anthem, on the other hand…** [/QUOTE] _takes a shot_ 😃 If you want something with the basic elements of the US flag, but much simpler, you might look towards the [roundel used on American military aircraft](http://cocardes.monde.free.fr/v2html/en/pays/etats_unis.html). Worth noting that our roundel originally was basically a palette-swap of the RAF bullseye (the French similarly did the same thing, with yet another arrangement of red-white-blue). > [@Alessan](#): > > I’m pretty sure that it’s because the unit patch is on the left sleeve. You’ll notice that most military pins, badges and patches are placed on the left; the flag was simply placed in the available empty real estate. > > In clothing, the left is the “heart” side, and thus the place of honor. I think you’ve got it backwards. The flag goes on the right, because that’s where the flag goes (ditto for the US flag displayed with any state flags when they’re not stacked on the same pole). It’s the unit patches that got put in the leftover space on the left side. Then you have the Air Force uniform, where we went from not wearing the US flag to not wearing unit insignia either. Except for the fliers, who get to wear whatever they feel like slapping onto their flight suits. _not bitter at all nosiree_ EDIT: And on the old BDUs, the patch arrangement varies from place to place (probably part of why they got rid of it, I guess it was simpler than just dictating how they should be arranged AF-wide). On my BDUs, I have my Command patch on the right upper pocket (a Command is the major AF level of organization), Wing Patch on the left upper pocket, and squadron patch above my nametape on the right side (a much smaller and less colorful Occupation Badge, dictating in very general terms what my job in the Air Force is, is above the “US Air Force” nametape on the left side). ---
**Author:** ![Namkcalb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c89c15/32.png) [@Namkcalb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Namkcalb)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2011, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-the-design-of-the-u-s-flag/596947/67 "2011-09-22T11:43:46Z")
> [@Raguleader](#): > > As far as the Confederate battle flag? Could we please not adopt the flag of a group of slaveholders and rebels responsible for the deaths of thousands of American soldiers on American soil? Well, if the Tories won the war of 1775, they’d say exactly the same thing about the secessionists and their [flag](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flag_of_the_United_States.svg) ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2011, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-the-design-of-the-u-s-flag/596947/68 "2011-09-22T11:50:56Z")
> [@Namkcalb](#): > > Well, if the Tories won the war of 1775, they’d say exactly the same thing about the secessionists and their [flag](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flag_of_the_United_States.svg) But they didn’t. 😉 Besides, has anyone suggested replacing the British flag with the American one? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Namkcalb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c89c15/32.png) [@Namkcalb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Namkcalb)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2011, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-the-design-of-the-u-s-flag/596947/69 "2011-09-22T12:18:31Z")
> [@Raguleader](#): > > But they didn’t. 😉 > > Besides, has anyone suggested replacing the British flag with the American one? 😃 Good point. Though, the Union flag isn’t the flag of the plucky but defeated rebels with some good ideas and some detestable ones. ---
**Author:** ![Sigmagirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c89c15/32.png) [@Sigmagirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sigmagirl)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2011, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-the-design-of-the-u-s-flag/596947/70 "2011-09-22T12:40:43Z")
> [@installLSC](#): > > I’m pretty sure that’s a [Phrygian or Liberty Cap](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrygian_cap), a common symbol in the early days of the American republic. Which was way cool until the Smurfs stole it. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2011, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-the-design-of-the-u-s-flag/596947/71 "2011-09-22T14:06:44Z")
> [@Raguleader](#): > > I think you’ve got it backwards. The flag goes on the right, because that’s where the flag goes (ditto for the US flag displayed with any state flags when they’re not stacked on the same pole). It’s the unit patches that got put in the leftover space on the left side. Except that flags are a relatively new thing on uniforms, while unit patches have been around for longer, and insignia on the left for much longer than that. Look at [this picture](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a7/General-Dwight-D-Eisenhower-Lt-General-Lucius-D-Clay-at-Gatow-Airport-in-Berlin.gif)from soon after WW2 - as you’'ll notice, Ike isn’t weaing a flag on his right shoulder, but the guy he’s talking to has his patch on the left, and everyone has insignia on their left chest. I doubt you’ll find flag patches on uniforms from before 1980 or so. Besides, my old (non-U.S. military) uniform had everything on the left and nothing on the right. We didn’t wear a flag. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2011, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-the-design-of-the-u-s-flag/596947/72 "2011-09-22T15:42:49Z")
> [@Namkcalb](#): > > Well, if the Tories won the war of 1775, they’d say exactly the same thing about the secessionists and their [flag](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flag_of_the_United_States.svg) The plucky Continentals actually were loath to completely sever their ties to Great Britain, vexilogically speaking: [Continental Union Flag - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_union_flag) The Boy Scouts of America wear the flag on the right arm of their uniforms, but not with the “pole forward” orientation: [http://www.worldofstock.com/slides/PCH6640.jpg](http://www.worldofstock.com/slides/PCH6640.jpg) I had no idea that Libya had changed its flag in early August! I guess it’s provisional, until Gaddafi is completely toppled: [Flag of Libya - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_libya) ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2011, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-the-design-of-the-u-s-flag/596947/73 "2011-09-22T16:17:01Z")
> [@cochrane](#): > > Flag patches worn on the right sleeve do have the field on the right side so it looks as if the wearer is carrying it forward. And it looks wrong! (That was the point, not that those don’t exist. I saw them on a military uniform. And thought, “that looks wrong!”) > [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > The Boy Scouts of America wear the flag on the right arm of their uniforms, but not with the “pole forward” orientation: [http://www.worldofstock.com/slides/PCH6640.jpg](http://www.worldofstock.com/slides/PCH6640.jpg) Yes, well familiar with it. Flag displayed with star field at upper left, which is how the flag is supposed to be displayed. ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2011, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-the-design-of-the-u-s-flag/596947/74 "2011-09-22T18:53:06Z")
Thanks for explaining what the hat on the NJ flag is all about. I still think it look hopelessly dorky. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2011, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-the-design-of-the-u-s-flag/596947/75 "2011-09-22T19:33:11Z")
I find the mullet (five-pointed star) to be the most overused and boring style element in any design. I think there should be a general moratorium on it. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2011, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-the-design-of-the-u-s-flag/596947/76 "2011-09-22T19:34:35Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > Yes, well familiar with it. Flag displayed with star field at upper left, which is how the flag is supposed to be displayed. … which is how the flag is supposed to be displayed when hanging on a wall or from a horizontal pole. Same rule doesn’t apply to shirtsleeves. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2011, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-the-design-of-the-u-s-flag/596947/77 "2011-09-22T19:43:16Z")
It’s too hard to draw. Say you’re a kid with some crayons. All of a sudden you realize you’re gonna have to go star star star star star star star star star star star star star and do a neat job of it, too. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2011, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-the-design-of-the-u-s-flag/596947/78 "2011-09-22T19:51:38Z")
That’s about how my criticism goes, too, **Beware**. I mean, if you’re a Canadian kid, you only need one crayon, and it doesn’t matter too much if your maple leaf is a bit blotchy. ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2011, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-the-design-of-the-u-s-flag/596947/79 "2011-09-22T21:48:43Z")
> [@Raguleader](#): > > As far as the Confederate battle flag? Could we please not adopt the flag of a group of slaveholders and rebels responsible for the deaths of thousands of American soldiers on American soil? The Confederate battle flag was the idea of a general (Beauregard, I think) who wanted Confederate Army troops to carry instantly identifiable colors. (He’d had a bad scare at First Bull Run, when he couldn’t identify a body of troops moving on his flank.) While the battle flag was eventually incorporated in the Confederate national flags, and then of course adopted by post-war white supremacists and assorted assholes, it originally represented the Confederate Army only, as distinct from the goverment or the nation. Which is to say, the thousands of men and women who gave up part or all of their lives to serve what they thought to be their country. Or, otherwise, perhaps the _only_ facet of the whole miserable mess that was the Confederate States of America that is worth celebrating and honoring. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2011, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-the-design-of-the-u-s-flag/596947/80 "2011-09-23T00:28:48Z")
> [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](#): > > …The Confederate battle flag… originally represented the Confederate Army only, as distinct from the goverment or the nation… Later the Confederate Navy, too, for two years: [Confederate States Navy - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederate_States_Navy#History) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-the-design-of-the-u-s-flag/596947.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-the-design-of-the-u-s-flag/596947.md?page=5)