# Critique the design of the U.S. flag **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 20, 2011, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-the-design-of-the-u-s-flag/596947 "2011-09-20T14:29:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2011, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-the-design-of-the-u-s-flag/596947/81 "2011-09-23T07:03:20Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > That’s about how my criticism goes, too, **Beware**. I mean, if you’re a Canadian kid, you only need one crayon, and it doesn’t matter too much if your maple leaf is a bit blotchy. Same thing if you’re an Israeli kid - all you need to draw with your blue crayon is two lines and two triangles. Of course, the Japanese kids have it easiest. Little bastards. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2011, 8:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-the-design-of-the-u-s-flag/596947/82 "2011-09-23T08:26:10Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > That’s about the worst thing you can do on a flag-- It just smacks of unoriginality. If the pattern can’t stand on its own, then you’ve already got problems. Or you could be like California, which has the _wrong_ name on it. The “California Republic” lasted for less than a month and had no authority or recognition. Somehow, I kinda like our flag for just that reason (despite being in overall agreement)… ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2011, 8:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-the-design-of-the-u-s-flag/596947/83 "2011-09-23T08:35:27Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > One point to make about the Union Jack’s symmetry is that it only has 180 degree rotational symmetry. If you fold it either horizontally or vertically, St. Andrew’s cross and St. Patrick’s cross do not overlap themselves but rather each other. Ugh–did you have do to that? For some reason, the Union Jack always had perfect rotational and reflective symmetry in my mind’s eye, but now that you’ve pointed this out I’ll never be able to unsee it. The offset stripes look pretty terrible, IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![Namkcalb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c89c15/32.png) [@Namkcalb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Namkcalb)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2011, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-the-design-of-the-u-s-flag/596947/84 "2011-09-23T11:32:59Z")
> [@Beware\_of\_Doug](#): > > It’s too hard to draw. Say you’re a kid with some crayons. All of a sudden you realize you’re gonna have to go star star star star star star star star star star star star star and do a neat job of it, too. Just be glad you aren’t Mexican ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2011, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-the-design-of-the-u-s-flag/596947/85 "2011-09-23T16:23:55Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > Or you could be like California, which has the _wrong_ name on it. The “California Republic” lasted for less than a month and had no authority or recognition. I’ve always thought they should change the formal name of the state to California Republic, as opposed to the boring “State of California.” It would sound awesome. There’s no particular reason why you couldn’t do it; the formal name of a state doesn’t matter. There’s no legal difference between the Commonwealth of Kentucky and State of Tennessee. So why not “California Republic”? It’s a cool name. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2011, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-the-design-of-the-u-s-flag/596947/86 "2011-09-23T17:08:55Z")
Texas would throw a shit fit. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2011, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-the-design-of-the-u-s-flag/596947/87 "2011-09-23T17:20:40Z")
> [@](#): > > Same thing if you’re an Israeli kid - all you need to draw with your blue crayon is two lines and two triangles. Yeah, Israel is another one I think is good. Probably better than Canada’s, in fact, since the Star of David is even more closely associated with Jews (and their homeland) than maples are with Canada. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2011, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-the-design-of-the-u-s-flag/596947/88 "2011-09-23T17:27:30Z")
Yeah. I mean the Irish really dropped the ball when they failed to put a shamrock or a harp on their flag. I mean, another tricolor? We needed another one of those? ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2011, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-the-design-of-the-u-s-flag/596947/89 "2011-09-23T17:37:31Z")
Well, if you’re going to give love to those countries that put cool things between vertical stripes, the how about Barbados? They’re all “Screw maple leaves and Stars of David; we got a goddam_spear!_” ---
**Author:** ![AndyLee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/898d66/32.png) [@AndyLee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AndyLee)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2011, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-the-design-of-the-u-s-flag/596947/90 "2011-09-23T18:54:14Z")
I think the US flag is too busy, but so are a lot of other flags that try to represent too much. I like the simple banner flags. But I still think the US flag is miles ahead of almost all state flags (US states). Arizona has about the only good state flag ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2011, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-the-design-of-the-u-s-flag/596947/91 "2011-09-23T19:25:05Z")
Arizona’s flag is ugly. New Mexico’s is much better. It’s simple, attractive, and iconic. The other good ones are Alabama, Alaska, Maryland, Ohio, South Carolina, Tennessee, and Texas. But New Mexico’s is hands down the best. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2011, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-the-design-of-the-u-s-flag/596947/92 "2011-09-23T19:48:27Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Yeah. I mean the Irish really dropped the ball when they failed to put a shamrock or a harp on their flag. I mean, another tricolor? We needed another one of those? I tend to agree, but at the time it was adopted in 1919, it was a symbolic linkage of the Catholic majority and the Protestant minority, and a rejection of the iconography of British rule: [Flag of Ireland - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_ireland). Oddly enough, the Irish President’s flag is as you describe. If it had a green field, I think it’d make a fine national flag for Ireland: [Coat of arms of Ireland - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presidential_Standard_(Ireland)) ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2011, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-the-design-of-the-u-s-flag/596947/93 "2011-09-23T19:57:23Z")
I think that in 1919 the use of the harp on the national flag would have been seen as antagonistic to Protestants. ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2011, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-the-design-of-the-u-s-flag/596947/94 "2011-09-23T21:25:30Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > …the harp on the national flag would have been seen as antagonistic to Protestants. Ooh, nothing gets us Protestants angry like a harp! Unless it’s an accordion. ::seething:: and do not get me started about that infernal harmonica… ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2011, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-the-design-of-the-u-s-flag/596947/95 "2011-09-23T21:32:37Z")
> [@digs](#): > > Ooh, nothing gets us Protestants angry like a harp! Unless it’s an accordion. > > ::seething:: and do not get me started about that infernal harmonica… I assume that underneath the joke you know what I’m talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2011, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-the-design-of-the-u-s-flag/596947/96 "2011-09-23T21:45:11Z")
\*I \*don’t. I know the harp has been an Irish symbol since the middle ages, but is it associated specifically with the Catholics? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2011, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-the-design-of-the-u-s-flag/596947/97 "2011-09-23T21:51:30Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > \*I \*don’t. I know the harp has been an Irish symbol since the middle ages, but is it associated specifically with the Catholics? The harp flag became strongly associated with the largely Catholic anti-British independence movement. It was avoided on the national flag so as not to directly antagonize those who weren’t all that crazy about independence in the first place, sort of a clean-slate thing. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2011, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-the-design-of-the-u-s-flag/596947/98 "2011-09-27T18:25:35Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > … which is how the flag is supposed to be displayed when hanging on a wall or from a horizontal pole. Same rule doesn’t apply to shirtsleeves. To me, it does. Look, my point is that we grow up seeing this image a certain way, and told this is how the flag is displayed. So naturally we stick that in our perception of what is “right”. Then see a different circumstance, it looks _wrong._\*\* It’s not about what makes sense, or even what the written rules actually are, it’s about perception and what most of us learned. I want to see the flag that way, dammit, and no explanation is going to change that. > [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](#): > > Well, if you’re going to give love to those countries that put cool things between vertical stripes, the how about Barbados? They’re all “Screw maple leaves and Stars of David; we got a goddam_spear!_” Trident. That’s not a spear, it’s a trident. Symbol for Neptune. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2011, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-the-design-of-the-u-s-flag/596947/99 "2011-09-27T18:38:10Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > we grow up seeing this image a certain way, and told this is how the flag is displayed. So, growing up, you never saw the flag flying to the left of a flagpole? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2011, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-the-design-of-the-u-s-flag/596947/100 "2011-09-27T21:19:22Z")
> [@](#): > > The harp flag became strongly associated with the largely Catholic anti-British independence movement. It was avoided on the national flag so as not to directly antagonize those who weren’t all that crazy about independence in the first place, sort of a clean-slate thing. But then, wouldn’t having a national flag at all be antagonistic to those who didn’t want independence? And a trident is a kind of spear. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-the-design-of-the-u-s-flag/596947.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-the-design-of-the-u-s-flag/596947.md?page=6)