# Critique this alternative system: Involuntary political service **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 18, 2009, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-alternative-system-involuntary-political-service/493538 "2009-04-18T16:13:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Happy\_Poster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Happy\_Poster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Poster)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2009, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-alternative-system-involuntary-political-service/493538/1 "2009-04-18T16:13:32Z")
Brainstorming here, so positive criticism as well as negative criticism is welcome 🙂 A huge number of problems with our systems are caused by the existence of the career politician - by this I mean both those who have done nothing other than politics for the majority of their working lives, as well as those who, while having a career in the real world, have remained focussed upon politics and have power as their ultimate aim. So what can we do to replace this and yet remain democratic? It seems to me that one obvious place to look for inspiration is the jury system. Suppose we elect our governments by a similar system, which is to say around 2000 (we will need a greater number of representatives that at present just to be more, well, representative) people are chosen at random from the electoral roll and forced to become politicians (I’m not sure how long for, but I have a figure of 30 months in my head for some reason). With this system the cabinet and head of government could be selected in a couple of ways, either by direct balloting of the 2000, Sistine Chapel style, or perhaps going to the electorate with a few choices from the 2000. In either case these folks will be drawn from the random bunch. I would be happy to work on more details (e.g. wages) but I think this is best done collaboratively. That’s if any other posters are interested, of course. What do you think? ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2009, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-alternative-system-involuntary-political-service/493538/2 "2009-04-18T16:23:12Z")
OJ ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Poster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Happy\_Poster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Poster)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2009, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-alternative-system-involuntary-political-service/493538/3 "2009-04-18T16:27:24Z")
You’re not suggesting juries reach worse decisions than politicians are you? That wouldn’t be supported by the facts! ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2009, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-alternative-system-involuntary-political-service/493538/4 "2009-04-18T16:33:04Z")
I think that’s a great idea! We should do the same thing with surgeons and pilots, too! Seriously, though. Politics is a profession, and it should be conducted by professional politicians. If there’s one thing worse than a power-hungry politician, it’s an incompetant one; and what you’re suggesting is government by incompetants. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2009, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-alternative-system-involuntary-political-service/493538/5 "2009-04-18T16:43:07Z")
> [@Angry Lurker](#): > > A huge number of problems with our systems are caused by the existence of the career politician - by this I mean both those who have done nothing other than politics for the majority of their working lives, as well as those who, while having a career in the real world, have remained focussed upon politics and have power as their ultimate aim. Is this really true? I can think of a number of career politicians whom I respect and admire. Before we come up with a solution, we should determine whether the problem you describe actually exists. Can you give some examples? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2009, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-alternative-system-involuntary-political-service/493538/6 "2009-04-18T17:05:35Z")
You may as well make all decisions by coin-flip. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2009, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-alternative-system-involuntary-political-service/493538/7 "2009-04-18T17:26:12Z")
I disagree that the problems are caused by decisions being made by career politicians. Shove Joe Average into the drivers seat, and I bet he’d be just as stupid and/or self-serving as the career politician, if not more so. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2009, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-alternative-system-involuntary-political-service/493538/8 "2009-04-18T17:49:21Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Seriously, though. Politics is a profession, and it should be conducted by professional politicians. If there’s one thing worse than a power-hungry politician, it’s an incompetant one; and what you’re suggesting is government by incompetants. I’ve been wondering about this lately, actually. When I hear Congressfolk talk about issues, they seem to have equal parts incompetence, demagoguing and serving special interests. But of course, at least some of that is probably just show, since they want to get elected. And of course, the Michelle Bachmanns of the world probably get a disproportionate amount of time in the press, so perhaps some honest, smart, hardworking congressfolk are writing legislation and working for the constituents and just don’t get noticed due to the wackos going on about how we need to eat all the Musliums or whatever. Is Congress filled with disingenous idiots, or am I just getting fooled. In any case, I don’t think putting randomly selected people in Congress is such a good idea, but I’d be willing to entertain the idea that _some_ method of changing the types of people who end up in poilitics and their motivations might be necessary. Also, by way of interesting trivia, the Athenian Democracy used to fill some of their political positions by lot. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2009, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-alternative-system-involuntary-political-service/493538/9 "2009-04-18T18:38:02Z")
Can’t find any online strips, but William Brown had a comic strip called “[President Bill](http://www.wmlbrown.com/wmlbpb.html)” about a man who was selected randomly and forced to serve as President. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2009, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-alternative-system-involuntary-political-service/493538/10 "2009-04-18T18:39:25Z")
> [@Angry Lurker](#): > > A huge number of problems with our systems are caused by the existence of the career politician - by this I mean both those who have done nothing other than politics for the majority of their working lives, as well as those who, while having a career in the real world, have remained focussed upon politics and have power as their ultimate aim. No, a huge number of problems with our system are **not** caused by the existence of career politicians. Government is no less part of the “real world” than anything else, and, like any highly complicated business, should be left to professional specialists. “Citizen legislators” are fine in limited numbers, but they can’t compare with careerists in competence. No modern democracy, no modern government of any form, has found a way to do without a specialized category of career statesmen and a much larger specialized category of career civil servants. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2009, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-alternative-system-involuntary-political-service/493538/11 "2009-04-18T18:45:12Z")
Actually, I ran a [thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=310125) on this same idea back in 2005. The OP: > [@](#): > > I once read a humorous graphic novel called President Bob or President Ted or something, I forget, about an ordinary guy who is selected as president of the United States in a national lottery after the Constitution is amended to replace elections with “randomocracy.” It’s just humor, but I once read a purportedly serious proposal in a conservative political magazine (I think it was the National Review) that Congress be selected by lottery – like most public officials were in ancient Athens (or like we now select jurors). Is this perhaps something to be seriously considered? > Arguments for: > > Our present Congress is mostly made up of rich people, lawyers, and other professionals – far from typical Americans. Regardless of their politics, we can expect them to put the interests of their own class first. A Congress composed of 535 randomly selected registered voters would be a more “exact transcript” of the people. I.e., by statistical probability it would include rich and middle-class and poor people, men and women, whites and blacks and Latinos, liberals and conservatives, in roughly the same proportions as they are present in the electorate as a whole. Wouldn’t that be more democratic, in terms of practical effects? > > Eliminating Congressional elections eliminates the influence of big money on the composition and policies of Congress. No need for campaign contributions, no way for businesses and lobbyists to influence the process. > > You want “citizen legislators”? You got citizen legislators. These members of Congress – effectively limited to one term, because who could win the lottery twice? – would not be career politicians, they would be just plain folks, like jurors. > Arguments against: > > They would not be career politicians. Our present class of career politicians at least know what they’re doing; they are professional experts in the highly complicated business of government. A Congress composed of randomly selected citizens would not be a Congress, it would be a focus group, competent only to vote up-or-down on proposals of the executive. Even more effective power would shift into the hands of the career bureaucrats who remain in Washington from one election/selection cycle to the next, gaining more expertise, knowledge and connections. > > Congressional elections give us all an occasion to focus public attention on public issues and flesh out some kind of public consensus, or at least majority sentiment, regarding them. We couldn’t do that in a lottery. ---
**Author:** ![Jules\_Andre](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jules_andre/32/9334_2.png) [@Jules\_Andre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jules_Andre)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2009, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-alternative-system-involuntary-political-service/493538/12 "2009-04-18T18:49:29Z")
As a small example, if this country was run by even a single person from my work, we’d all be screwed. Same goes for my 11th grade English class, or even any of the political science classes I took.in college. Government run by the John and Jane Does of the world would probably be a disaster. There’s a reason those T.V. segments where the host asks easy questions to random people off the street are so hilariously appalling. I bet close to half of all Americans don’t know how many seats are in the Senate. But, let’s say that your premise is correct. The problems with our current political system are due to career politicians. Perhaps the problem is not that there are career politicians, but that people can make a career out of politics. Wouldn’t your premise be better served by limiting the number of terms a person can serve in any particular seat, like the President is limited to two 4-year terms? If a member of the House can’t be elected to ten or fifteen terms, doesn’t that solve your problem? If you get one, or two, or however many terms with a fixed limit, perhaps it forces politicians to do more to earn support, instead of the current system where they do just as much as is required not to lose support. And perhaps you can only move up in the system (House to Senate to President, etc.), too. I personally think more problems arise from the public voting simply based on party affiliation and/or name recognition, without bothering to do any research on a particular candidate or their platform. Term limits would go a long way to fixing part of that problem, too. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2009, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-alternative-system-involuntary-political-service/493538/13 "2009-04-18T20:05:33Z")
This system was [used in the democracy of ancient Athens](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sortition). The existence of this system in Athens did not prevent the city-state from having problems with [corrupt, self-serving politicians](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcibiades) or from becoming an [imperialist power](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delian_League) and eventually [waging a ruinous foreign war](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peloponnesian_War). I would imagine that randomly selected citizen-legislators would be _at least_ as subject to being influenced and corrupted by entrenched interests as elected, semi-permanent politician-legislators are. It would be all too easy to see being selected for the legislature as being the equivalent of winning the lottery–a once in a lifetime opportunity to make it to easy street. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Poster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Happy\_Poster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Poster)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2009, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-alternative-system-involuntary-political-service/493538/14 "2009-04-18T21:21:29Z")
If I may take this thread on a tangent, let’s continue discussing the original proposal, yet also consider a slight variation: 10 000 are selected at random to be eligible to run for election to congress/president/parliament/senate/prime minister/whatever. Amongst those 10 000 one would find a few competent (by whatever ones arbitrary standard of professional is) folk, no? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2009, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-alternative-system-involuntary-political-service/493538/15 "2009-04-18T21:52:33Z")
> [@Angry Lurker](#): > > Amongst those 10 000 one would find a few competent (by whatever ones arbitrary standard of professional is) folk, no? Out of 10,000, a handful. If you take a random sampling of people, what percentage have ANY managerial experience? Maybe one in ten? One in twenty? In most “real-world” companies the workers outnumber the supervisers by an order of magnitude or more. So out of your random sampling of 10,000 citizens, more than 9000 of them won’t even possess the necessary experience to supervise their own staff, let alone handle the other responsibilities of the job. ---
**Author:** ![sovtawen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@sovtawen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sovtawen)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2009, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-alternative-system-involuntary-political-service/493538/16 "2009-04-18T22:06:38Z")
I wouldn’t be surprised if a random sampling of the population contains a larger number of good leaders than a random sampling of politicians. Politics selects for the most greedy, venal, power-hungry, and narcissistic among us. Nobody else would want the job. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2009, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-alternative-system-involuntary-political-service/493538/17 "2009-04-18T22:08:57Z")
Incidentally, there’s one thing you have to remember about juries - they are utterly useless without tight control by a person possesing near-absolute power, namely, the judge. In fact, all juries are allowed to do is listen and submit a single opinion; actual “rule” is in the hands of a trained professional. In your involuntary political service system, who are the judges? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2009, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-alternative-system-involuntary-political-service/493538/18 "2009-04-18T22:54:43Z")
> [@sovtawen](#): > > Politics selects for the most greedy, venal, power-hungry, and narcissistic among us. Nonsense. It doesn’t pay well enough for that. And the checks and balances of government really limit how much you can indulge your base whims. If you’re a greedy, power-mad SOB you’re far more likely to go into business than government. There are far more opportunities to wallow in excess, your powers are more dictatorial, and the level of public scrutiny is far less. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2009, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-alternative-system-involuntary-political-service/493538/19 "2009-04-18T23:16:16Z")
I’d prefer that the people who are running the government are people who _want_ to be there rather than people pissed off that their name got pulled out of a hat and now they have to waste the next thirty months on stupid governing shit. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2009, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-alternative-system-involuntary-political-service/493538/20 "2009-04-18T23:33:23Z")
I agree that politics should be left to professionals. However, I don’t think professional politicians have the proper incentives to really benefit their constituency or the country. Politicians are rewarded who trade long term interests for short-term gain and spend an inordinate amount of time advertising their own names and faces. Ability hardly enters into it. Checks and balances are nice for limiting abuse, but to encourage quality civic leadership, we need to implement some incentives. No, I don’t know what those would possibly be. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-alternative-system-involuntary-political-service/493538.md?page=2)