# Critique this idea for using prisoners in the US armed forces, please **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 14, 2003, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-idea-for-using-prisoners-in-the-us-armed-forces-please/154981 "2003-02-14T02:30:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![BURNER](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ccd318/32.png) [@BURNER](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BURNER)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2003, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-idea-for-using-prisoners-in-the-us-armed-forces-please/154981/21 "2003-02-14T16:29:41Z")
> [@](#): > > Whose misguided opinion would that be? Monty’s? Know your audience, BURNER. Monty was in the armed forces. I’d be willing to believe him on this. As was myself. I worked on the A-6E intruder bomber. I was stationed in N.A.S. Oceana in Virginia Beach, VA and attatched to the U.S.S. George Washington out of Norfolk, VA with Carrier air group 7. Oh , and I am also a Gulf War vet, so I think I know my target audience well enough. > [@](#): > > How about peacekeeping, escorts, refugee aid, rescue missions, etc.? It’s like how firefighters are trained for that rare time when there is a fire. Sure, military personnel are trained to kill, but that’s not the whole, nor even the majority, of the training they undergo. I must have missed that part in boot camp. I was trained to fix navigation,communication and fire control gear on the A-6 and in all my years I never did get any training on being an “escort” or for “refugee aid”. I was trained on the diffrence betwen a 500 lb cluster,fragment and high explosive bomb. I was shown how to arm a HARM and side winder missile, but I was never shown how to keep the peace. I did get a little traing on how to fight fires on board the ship and how to react to a chemical attack though. All in all my military expierience was one of ending the life of other people. When a plane leaves loaded down with 24 500lb bombs and comes back empty they didnt keep the peace or aid reffugees. They blew up Iraqi stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2003, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-idea-for-using-prisoners-in-the-us-armed-forces-please/154981/22 "2003-02-14T16:35:44Z")
Serial killers sneak up on teenagers, drag them in the woods, and rape / murder them - they don’t follow orders to flank a defended enemy position under heavy fire. Stalin used prisoners to clear mine fields. Put me down as a “no.” ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2003, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-idea-for-using-prisoners-in-the-us-armed-forces-please/154981/23 "2003-02-14T16:40:49Z")
Well, my grandfather spent 30 years in the army, six of them stationed in Germany (post-WWII) on peacekeeping missions. And there’s also the fact that not all people in the military even see action, let alone fight. Some of them serve in other functions (EE technician, anyone?). Hell, my grandfather helped organize an anti-war march in the 70s (his job was actually rather small; sanitation). Direct quote from my mother (his last-born: “Grandfather was responsible for the lives of thousands of men. He wasn’t into killing. He much preferred peacetime.” ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2003, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-idea-for-using-prisoners-in-the-us-armed-forces-please/154981/24 "2003-02-14T16:48:00Z")
I’m a little flaggergasted that anyone could compare a serial killer to the job of a soldier. You want to allow a pot dealer to cook for the army, fine. A car thief in covert operations, fine. A serial killer trying to fight according to the Geneva Convention - WTF?! I’m not saying that nobody who ever broke any law could serve, hardly. I am saying that murder is not the same thing as fighting in a modern army. For one thing, in war you can _surrender_. I hesitate to fire off a long list of the obvious. ---
**Author:** ![deball](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/df705f/32.png) [@deball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/deball)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2003, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-idea-for-using-prisoners-in-the-us-armed-forces-please/154981/25 "2003-02-14T18:31:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Beagle \* > \*\*Serial killers sneak up on teenagers, drag them in the woods, and rape / murder them - they don’t follow orders to flank a defended enemy position under heavy fire. \*\* Beagle beat me to it. Most of those guys I’m sure never faced an armed oppostion that intended to kill _them_. Plus, there is a huge difference between a developing a crude letter bomb to send to an unsuspecting professor, and developing those HARMs that hit a RADAR site umpteen miles away. The Unabomber wasn’t a genius, he was a kooky freaked-out luddite. I had friends that had seeked out enlistment in the military prior to a court date for a minor offense (weed possesion), and this was enough to sway the judge in favor of letting them go be Marines. Here’s my view on the OP. When I was in, if I knew the guy next to me was doing this service in lieu of hard jail time, I would have been more than a little uncomfortable. The last thing I needed was some unpredictable guy who might totally freak out when I told him he was doing something wrong. Not good for cohesion. It seems probable that a lot of these people would just end up in a Temporary Processing Unit, on restriction, until they were cycled back into prison. A big waste of time and money. ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2003, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-idea-for-using-prisoners-in-the-us-armed-forces-please/154981/26 "2003-02-14T19:49:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Zebra \* > \*\*Well, lets say a person is in jail for burgulary. They borke into a home when nobody was there and stole a TV and were later caught and given jail. > > Now they want out of jail so they join the Army. Lo and behold a war starts and now our burgular is at the front and his unit is given an order to hold a position as long as possible while other units are pulled back. Basically his unit is ordered to die. I’m not say the whole unit is made up of criminals but our guy is in that unit. So now basically you have given him the death penalty for stealing a TV. \*\* I considered this, and that’s why I suggested a civilian work corps program instead of the Army. A civilian works project would have no additional dangers than an ordinary job, and could accomplish much. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2003, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-idea-for-using-prisoners-in-the-us-armed-forces-please/154981/27 "2003-02-14T23:11:21Z")
Burner: You must not have paid much attention, if any, during your Basic Training if you seriously believed that you weren’t trained to keep the peace. I went through Basic Combat Training when I enlisted in the Army and when I enlisted in the Navy I went through OSVET training. Both training regimes included a good deal of the why and how the United States Armed Forces defend the peace. Do you recall the expressions: deterrent, show the flag, or NATO? If you do and you still make the assertions you make above, that shows that you are not interested in fact. I might regret this, but here goes anyway: If the military’s all fired up for killing, why then is a disqualifying factor an arrest for murder? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2003, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-idea-for-using-prisoners-in-the-us-armed-forces-please/154981/28 "2003-02-14T23:14:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Zebra \* > Oh and **Monty** I thought **Burner’s** first post was a joke. It was. Apparently, though, he didn’t mean for it to be one. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2003, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-idea-for-using-prisoners-in-the-us-armed-forces-please/154981/29 "2003-02-14T23:18:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by iampunha \* > **Monty** , it looks like you need about as much help here as you would in an ATMB “Monty, how do you spell your screen name? Also, what is the proper spelling of IQ, CIA and ALS?” thread, but I couldn’t pass these up;) I wonder if Burner has to dial “O” to get the number for “411” so he can get the number for “911” in an emergency. At least that’s the impression I get from his response to your posting, iampunha. ---
**Author:** ![KidCharlemagne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed8c4c/32.png) [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2003, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-idea-for-using-prisoners-in-the-us-armed-forces-please/154981/30 "2003-02-14T23:31:46Z")
I would only accept this idea as one small part of a larger “rewards for productivity” type program. I say give prisoner’s a “bread and water” type meal and no guaranteed recreation, but alot of options to earn reward points that they can use to towards better food, a better cell, access to gym equipment, etc. Everyone wins - prisons might require less public funding, prisoners see the relationship between effort and reward (rehabilitation and increased self-esteem), and the public get’s a service. ---
**Author:** ![KidCharlemagne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed8c4c/32.png) [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2003, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-idea-for-using-prisoners-in-the-us-armed-forces-please/154981/31 "2003-02-14T23:33:11Z")
gets, not get’s. ---
**Author:** ![Wearia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/13edae/32.png) [@Wearia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wearia)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2003, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-idea-for-using-prisoners-in-the-us-armed-forces-please/154981/32 "2003-02-14T23:35:30Z")
One point made that I think is very important is **Beagle** ’s. Some prisoners are psychotics. They would not listen if a commander told them to stay down and hide their location. They’d run out and shoot anything that moves. Soldiers, children, dogs, allies, whatever and show the enemy their position in the process. I would not trust a cerial killer out in a battle field and I doubt trained soldiers would either. As for those who only commited small crimes (stealing t.v’s etc) I wouldn’t mind if some were given the option of 3 years military service instead of say 2 years in prison. However the option should only be open to those that are qualified physically and mentally. ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2003, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-idea-for-using-prisoners-in-the-us-armed-forces-please/154981/33 "2003-02-15T00:11:14Z")
I thought it would be a given that someone who has shown him/herself to be mentally unstable for combat would not be given a position where that would be an issue. Obviously those who are a danger to themselves and/or others in the possession of more than a rubber ball should be given no chance to do such danger. That said, I do think there are people currently in jail who would benefit from voluntary military service and the commutation or shortening of their sentence. Doesn’t even have to be in combat. ---
**Author:** ![SRB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecae2f/32.png) [@SRB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SRB)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2003, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-idea-for-using-prisoners-in-the-us-armed-forces-please/154981/34 "2003-02-15T01:57:12Z")
Iampunha, one question. If you were in a battle situation with one of these pseudo-soldiers, would you be willing to have him/her covering YOUR butt? ---
**Author:** ![Tripler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripler/32/21807_2.png) [@Tripler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tripler)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2003, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-idea-for-using-prisoners-in-the-us-armed-forces-please/154981/35 "2003-02-15T02:06:51Z")
I’m going to bag on **BURNER** for one reason, and one reason alone (he’s apparently a veteran, so he’ll appreciate my point of view): **BURNER** , serial killers, rapists, muggers, and some murderers all rely on one thing - the element of surprise. They all killed people by catching them off guard and exploiting their unarmed weaknesses. How should I line up a platoon of these people if the enemy knows they’re coming? How can these “trained killers” kill if the enemy is prepared for their simple existence? Are these criminals prepared to deal with hand-to-hand combat? Are they prepared to deal with incoming artillery? I highly doubt it. They sought a weaker enemy and exploited their weaknesses. Given this, if I were forced to use troops like this, I’d use them in ambushes, and that’s about it - it’s all they’re good at. Tripler Another $0.02 for the piggy bank. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2003, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-idea-for-using-prisoners-in-the-us-armed-forces-please/154981/36 "2003-02-15T02:08:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by BURNER \* > I must have missed that part in boot camp. I was trained to fix navigation,communication and fire control gear on the A-6 and in all my years I never did get any training on being an “escort” or for “refugee aid”. I was trained on the diffrence betwen a 500 lb cluster,fragment and high explosive bomb. I was shown how to arm a HARM and side winder missile, but I was never shown how to keep the peace. I did get a little traing on how to fight fires on board the ship and how to react to a chemical attack though. All in all my military expierience was one of ending the life of other people. When a plane leaves loaded down with 24 500lb bombs and comes back empty they didnt keep the peace or aid reffugees. \*\* Ok…first of all you do realize that there are entire branches of the military who do operate a little more forward than your position on a carrier 100 miles out to sea? And these guys do have to operate sometimes in close proximity to civilians without indiscriminately killing them. On the other hand, based on your posts, it appears that mentally unstable people can serve a roll in the military. ---
**Author:** ![BURNER](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ccd318/32.png) [@BURNER](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BURNER)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2003, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-idea-for-using-prisoners-in-the-us-armed-forces-please/154981/37 "2003-02-15T02:48:04Z")
> [@](#): > > BURNER, serial killers, rapists, muggers, and some murderers all rely on one thing - the element of surprise. They all killed people by catching them off guard and exploiting their unarmed weaknesses. > > How should I line up a platoon of these people if the enemy knows they’re coming? How can these “trained killers” kill if the enemy is prepared for their simple existence? Are these criminals prepared to deal with hand-to-hand combat? Are they prepared to deal with incoming artillery? I highly doubt it. They sought a weaker enemy and exploited their weaknesses. > > Given this, if I were forced to use troops like this, I’d use them in ambushes, and that’s about it - it’s all they’re good at. That is the point entirely. I guess you all missed the part in my first post when I said “I am all for emptying the jails onto the battle field.” I didnt say anything about training them or useing them in regular units. Just arm them, and drop them off somewhere close to the front lines. Let the killers kill. for **Monty** > [@](#): > > Burner: You must not have paid much attention, if any, during your Basic Training if you seriously believed that you weren’t trained to keep the peace. I went through Basic Combat Training when I enlisted in the Army and when I enlisted in the Navy I went through OSVET training. Both training regimes included a good deal of the why and how the United States Armed Forces defend the peace. Do you recall the expressions: deterrent, show the flag, or NATO? If you do and you still make the assertions you make above, that shows that you are not interested in fact. > > I might regret this, but here goes anyway: If the military’s all fired up for killing, why then is a disqualifying factor an arrest for murder? Well , I probably did miss all that stuff,since as of this April I will have been out of the service for 10 years. Maybe you have been in more recently that myself. I got out around the time the started to introduce the “Kinder and gentler” millitary. At the time I went through boot camp there was no mention of NATO or “show the flag” kind of deterents. I would think that being convited of murder would be an exclusion from military service because its a felony. AFAIK a felon can not possess a fire arm of any sort. Its kind of hard to be in the service if you cant be around guns. ---
**Author:** ![Kalashnikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/2bfe46/32.png) [@Kalashnikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalashnikov)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2003, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-idea-for-using-prisoners-in-the-us-armed-forces-please/154981/38 "2003-02-15T03:09:39Z")
> [@](#): > > AFAIK a felon can not possess a fire arm of any sort. Its kind of hard to be in the service if you cant be around guns. None of the 20,000 gun laws in this country apply to members of the armed forces or law enforcement (at least not while they’re on duty). But anyway this whole idea is really terrible for many of the reasons which have already been stated. ---
**Author:** ![Tripler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripler/32/21807_2.png) [@Tripler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tripler)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2003, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-idea-for-using-prisoners-in-the-us-armed-forces-please/154981/39 "2003-02-15T04:13:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by BURNER \* > \*\*That is the point entirely. I guess you all missed the part in my first post when I said “I am all for emptying the jails onto the battle field.” I didnt say anything about training them or useing them in regular units. Just arm them, and drop them off somewhere close to the front lines. Let the killers kill. > \*\* Then you have absolutely no concept of war, or how to fight it. War isn’t just ambushes and machine guns, slick. War involves occupation, messy political-civil-military policing, and a lot of other crap that blur the lines. And would you have armed murderers and rapists act in a “nationbuilding” process? Tripler Would you? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2003, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-idea-for-using-prisoners-in-the-us-armed-forces-please/154981/40 "2003-02-15T05:05:21Z")
Burner: I went through BCT in 1979 and OSVET in 1986. I retired in 2000. Kalashnikov: > [@](#): > > None of the 20,000 gun laws in this country apply to members of the armed forces or law enforcement (at least not while they’re on duty). is not true. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-idea-for-using-prisoners-in-the-us-armed-forces-please/154981.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-idea-for-using-prisoners-in-the-us-armed-forces-please/154981.md?page=3)