# Critique this: Why blacks run faster **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 6, 2012, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414 "2012-07-06T13:42:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/221 "2012-07-07T22:43:55Z")
> [@treis](#): > > No, you didn’t. You said the difference didn’t matter, which isn’t an answer to “do you think the result would be different?”. > > To be clear, your answer to: > > Is that you don’t know? You can’t even hazard a guess for us? No, I can’t. And if you think you can then you don’t know how science works. You want to claim that you can get repeatable, scientific results by taking non-scientific short cuts. You can’t. “That guy looks black” is not a scientifically rigorous methodology for determining genotype anymore than “that car is going fast” is a scientifically rigorous methodology for determining the speed of a car. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/222 "2012-07-07T22:49:26Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > No, I can’t. And if you think you can then you don’t know how science works. You want to claim that you can get repeatable, scientific results by taking non-scientific short cuts. You can’t. “That guy looks black” is not a scientifically rigorous methodology for determining genotype anymore than “that car is going fast” is a scientifically rigorous methodology for determining the speed of a car. I’ll just say the same thing to you I said to Ibn Warraq > [@treis](#): > > If you want to say the facts I gave are wrong because the author doesn’t know how to identify a black person, just say so and we will all think you are being ridiculously obtuse. No reason for all of this rigmarole. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/223 "2012-07-07T22:53:49Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > You might also get into the cultural phenomenon that among Canadian hockey players the best players tend to be those who have birthdays in June beginning of the year and that there are very few great hockey players who have birthdays at the end if the year. Thzt’s easily explained by astrology 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/224 "2012-07-07T22:57:06Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > And I repeat my counter-argument : where “world-dominant” sprinters are from doesn’t really matter in this debate. Because there are many other variables that might explain why a given country has or does not have world -class sprinters. Mainly how much is spend on sports in the country and how popular this particular sport is. If it weren’t the case, the most obvious evidence that west-Africans don’t have an hedge in short distance races would be to point at the definite lack of Senegalese world champions. > > What matters again is whether or not the best sprinters in a given country tend to be of west-African ancestry. Not “are there many world champions from Venezuela?” But “what is the ancestry of the Venezuelan national champions?” But if the cultural explanation works for the former then it also works for the latter. As Malcolm Gladwell himself stated, running has the same cultural significance to Canadians if Jamaican background that it does in Jamaica itself. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/225 "2012-07-07T22:58:00Z")
> [@treis](#): > > I’ll just say the same thing to you I said to Ibn Warraq That’s real clever. I’ll just repeat what I said earlier. 1) It’s not clear that the investigators were studying a genetic issue, a cultural issue, or some combination of both. 2) They certainly didn’t use “that guy looks black” as a way of classifying their subjects. Your cite is not an example of what you claimed, and what I objected to. It’s not even close. You can pretend all day long that you can do science without actually doing science, and you’re going to be wrong all day long. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/226 "2012-07-07T23:37:14Z")
> [@PrettyVacant](#): > > Jesus Christ. > > I think I’ll try another board for views on Johnson’s presentation. Thanks all. Now, see, if you were descended from West African slaves you could be out of here in world record time. Just saying… ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/227 "2012-07-07T23:59:59Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > You might also get into the cultural phenomenon that among Canadian hockey players the best players tend to be those who have birthdays in June beginning of the year and that there are very few great hockey players who have birthdays at the end if the year. Malcolm Gladwell’s hypothesis hasn’t stood up to scrutiny; his claim in this regard appears to be at least very exagerrated. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2012, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/228 "2012-07-08T00:23:08Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > That’s real clever. It’s not “clever”. It’s not bothering to engage with someone who isn’t interested in acknowledging facts. According to you, if I came back with a survey showing that speed positions in the NFL are almost uniformly black based on self reporting, that would be worth something. But since that survey is based on a reporters observations and investigations into ambitious cases, it’s completely and utterly worthless to you. It’s friggen ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2012, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/229 "2012-07-08T00:36:37Z")
> [@treis](#): > > It’s not “clever”. It’s not bothering to engage with someone who isn’t interested in acknowledging facts. According to you, if I came back with a survey showing that speed positions in the NFL are almost uniformly black based on self reporting, that would be worth something. But since that survey is based on a reporters observations and investigations into ambitious cases, it’s completely and utterly worthless to you. It’s friggen ridiculous. No. You made a claim. I called it unscientific. You came back with a cite to something that didn’t substantiate your claim. I called you on it, and you got all huffy. If you want to discuss facts, you don’t come in here with statements like “that guy looks black” is a good proxy for doing a DNA analysis. It’s not. And since it’s trivially easy these days to do DNA analyses, there is not need to rely on such an unscientific methodology. What you imagine in your mind is not a fact. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2012, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/230 "2012-07-08T01:21:28Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > No. You made a claim. I called it unscientific. You came back with a cite to something that didn’t substantiate your claim. I called you on it, and you got all huffy. > > If you want to discuss facts, you don’t come in here with statements like “that guy looks black” is a good proxy for doing a DNA analysis. It’s not. And since it’s trivially easy these days to do DNA analyses, there is not need to rely on such an unscientific methodology. What you imagine in your mind is not a fact. Like I said, it’s not really worth it to me. If you don’t want to consider an NFL writer’s analysis of the racial breakdown of the NFL then fine. I don’t really care. It’s obvious what you are doing. If you tried to argue what the NFL writer found wasn’t true, anyone who watches football would know your full of shit. So you attack it where you can to support what you want to believe. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2012, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/231 "2012-07-08T01:38:21Z")
I’m at a loss as to why you are suddenly shifting the discussion from the article you cited to the NFL, but if it’s because you’re abandoning that article as a cite that backs up your claim, I guess that’s understandable. As to why you are arguing against a position that you think I will take… well I guess that’s easier than arguing against my actual position. Let’s try a little test. Look at [this guy](http://images.search.yahoo.com/images/view;_ylt=A2KJkK664_hP7TcAASaJzbkF;_ylu=X3oDMTBlMTQ4cGxyBHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDaW1n?back=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.search.yahoo.com%2Fsearch%2Fimages%3F_adv_prop%3Dimage%26va%3Dlouis%2Bgates%26fr%3Dmy-myy%26tab%3Dorganic%26ri%3D4&w=2388&h=3600&imgurl=unews.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2011%2F01%2Fhenry-gates.jpg&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Funews.com%2F2011%2F01%2F17%2Fhenry-louis-gates-jr-delivers-martin-luther-king-jr-keynote-address%2F&size=415.7+KB&name=When+the+news+broke+in+July+2009+that+Harvard+professor+Henry+Louis+Gates%2C+Jr.+was+arrested+outside+his&p=louis+gates&oid=8bc815e1cf20aee9aa566b08e790ba85&fr2=&fr=my-myy&tt=When%2Bthe%2Bnews%2Bbroke%2Bin%2BJuly%2B2009%2Bthat%2BHarvard%2Bprofessor%2BHenry%2BLouis%2BGates%252C%2BJr.%2Bwas%2Barrested%2Boutside%2Bhis&b=0&ni=84&no=4&ts=&tab=organic&sigr=130cm3l10&sigb=1365ddnvo&sigi=11kk09c4c&.crumb=Er0p7Lbv2Tv) (no, it’s not Obama) and tell me if he looks black. And then I’ll tell you what his DNA profile is. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2012, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/232 "2012-07-08T02:06:14Z")
> [@Iggy](#): > > The slave trade (as a centuries’ long event) can clearly be viewed as a selective event for population genetics purposes. Discrete events within the context of the slave trade could be considered selective events. There do not have to be races for this to be so. > > One example that might be easily understood: > In the people on one particular slave ship some might be herterozygous for a mutant CFTR gene which confers some protection against fluid loss to diarrhea. Such illness outbreaks were not unheard of in the Middle Passage. In an outbreak of illness such a trait will not necessarily protect everyone with that genetic makeup, but so long as persons with that trait are more likely survive to pass on their genes on average then there is positive selective pressure. > > Anything heritable that would allow carriers of that trait to survive disproportionately would be enhanced in frequency in the next generation. That is how selective pressure works. > > Some people have a [higher fast twitch to slow twitch muscle fiber ratio](http://sportsmedicine.about.com/od/anatomyandphysiology/a/MuscleFiberType.htm). Such a person _might_ have had a fitness advantage in the era of the slave trade and thus left more descendants. But it is not required because of a different mechanism, genetic drift. > > When establishing a new isolated population, the potential for [genetic drift](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_drift) arises. This is a somewhat separate idea from a selected trait. > > The slave trade took some people from various areas in West Africa and relocated them forcibly to the New World. These enslaved peoples could not continue to interbreed with the parent population. Their opportunities to interbreed in the New World were limited by geographic isolation, having been sold in various islands or cities on the mainland. This is the recipe for a [founder effect](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Founder_effect) if I’ve ever seen one. > > If, purely by chance, the proportion of persons enslaved in Jamaica had a higher incidence of high fast twitch muscle fiber ratio (as compared to thier home population(s) in Africa) then that trait could have increased in frequency simply by chance. > Cultural differences certainly may provide opportunity to identify those with genetic gifts in one way or another. But it is not entirely unreasonable to think that a population may have, on average, a greater proportion of persons with high fast twitch muscle fiber ratios. Hey **Iggy** , you brought up a lot of interesting mechanisms in addition to population bottlenecks and artificial selection (mentioned indirectly in the OP) that might account for some special genetic architecture in African Americans. So help me understand something: 1. How come there is no significant difference in genetic variation between African- Americans and West Africans? 2. How come there is no difference in average linkage disequilibrium between African-Americans and West Africans? 3. How come the only difference between African-Americans and West Africans is in % of the genome that has a European origin? 4. How come African Americans and West Africans immigrants do not differ in the prevalence of hypertension-associated alleles for 3 genes but African-Americans have higher rates of hypertension? You must know what I am referring to: The great hypothesis that posits slave ship selection pressure caused the differential survival of captives who could retain salt, resulting in African American populations with higher rates of hypertension. It’s actually identical to the OP’s hypothesis. The difference being is that the hypothesis was tested and totally unsupported by the data? So in other words, how come there can be founder effects, natural and artificial selection and population bottlenecks yet there is not a single bit of evidence that these population level mechanisms occurred in the genetics of the African Americans? I hope **Pretty Vacant** and others proposing these hypotheses would just stop the armchair hypothesizing and go to google scholar to look these topics up. They’ve been proposed countless times and the evidence never supports it…yet the idea always rears its ugly head. For example, can any of you even identify a gene with variants that alter the ratio of your twitchy muscle fibers you love to talk about so much? ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2012, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/233 "2012-07-08T02:18:11Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I’m at a loss as to why you are suddenly shifting the discussion from the article you cited to the NFL, but if it’s because you’re abandoning that article as a cite that backs up your claim, I guess that’s understandable. As to why you are arguing against a position that you think I will take… well I guess that’s easier than arguing against my actual position. > > Let’s try a little test. Look at [this guy](http://images.search.yahoo.com/images/view;_ylt=A2KJkK664_hP7TcAASaJzbkF;_ylu=X3oDMTBlMTQ4cGxyBHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDaW1n?back=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.search.yahoo.com%2Fsearch%2Fimages%3F_adv_prop%3Dimage%26va%3Dlouis%2Bgates%26fr%3Dmy-myy%26tab%3Dorganic%26ri%3D4&w=2388&h=3600&imgurl=unews.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2011%2F01%2Fhenry-gates.jpg&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Funews.com%2F2011%2F01%2F17%2Fhenry-louis-gates-jr-delivers-martin-luther-king-jr-keynote-address%2F&size=415.7+KB&name=When+the+news+broke+in+July+2009+that+Harvard+professor+Henry+Louis+Gates%2C+Jr.+was+arrested+outside+his&p=louis+gates&oid=8bc815e1cf20aee9aa566b08e790ba85&fr2=&fr=my-myy&tt=When%2Bthe%2Bnews%2Bbroke%2Bin%2BJuly%2B2009%2Bthat%2BHarvard%2Bprofessor%2BHenry%2BLouis%2BGates%252C%2BJr.%2Bwas%2Barrested%2Boutside%2Bhis&b=0&ni=84&no=4&ts=&tab=organic&sigr=130cm3l10&sigb=1365ddnvo&sigi=11kk09c4c&.crumb=Er0p7Lbv2Tv) (no, it’s not Obama) and tell me if he looks black. And then I’ll tell you what his DNA profile is. What in the world are you talking about? The article I cited was exclusively about the NFL. How can I shift between talking about the article and the NFL? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2012, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/234 "2012-07-08T02:46:44Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Ridiculous. There is a vast amount of research in medicine, sociology, and other fields that separate subjects into racial categories. For example, here is one about heart disease and plaque build ups: > > [http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/medical/health/medical/heartdisease/story/2011/07/Study-hints-at-why-heart-disease-is-more-deadly-for-blacks/49019844/1](http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/medical/health/medical/heartdisease/story/2011/07/Study-hints-at-why-heart-disease-is-more-deadly-for-blacks/49019844/1) > > I’m sure Dr Schoepf would appreciate a call informing him of the complete uselessness of his studies. That article was about the NFL? Can you quote the part that is, because I’m not seeing it. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2012, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/235 "2012-07-08T02:51:19Z")
This article: [http://blogs.citypages.com/blotter/2008/12/nfl\_a\_study\_in.php](http://blogs.citypages.com/blotter/2008/12/nfl_a_study_in.php) ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2012, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/236 "2012-07-08T02:52:10Z")
**John Mace** , a question regarding the report on the NFL: how accurate, or inaccurate do you think the reporter’s observations were? Do you think they might be off a a percent o0r two? Or but a substantial enough amount to call his observations into question? What percent accuracy would you expect him to have and what percent accuracy would you say would make his point credible? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2012, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/237 "2012-07-08T02:56:56Z")
> [@treis](#): > > This article: > > [http://blogs.citypages.com/blotter/2008/12/nfl\_a\_study\_in.php](http://blogs.citypages.com/blotter/2008/12/nfl_a_study_in.php) Can you quote the part where he tells us how he determined the race of the players? Also, can you tell me whether the person in my link “looks black” or not? This has to be a dialogue, not a one-way deal. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2012, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/238 "2012-07-08T03:00:10Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > **John Mace** , a question regarding the report on the NFL: how accurate, or inaccurate do you think the reporter’s observations were? Do you think they might be off a a percent o0r two? Or but a substantial enough amount to call his observations into question? What percent accuracy would you expect him to have and what percent accuracy would you say would make his point credible? It’s not clear how the reporter determined the race of those folks. The point here, which seems to have been lost over and over again, is that “looks black” is not a good scientific substitute for actual DNA analysis. It’s that simple. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2012, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/239 "2012-07-08T03:01:17Z")
I’ve already cited his methodology. And you are indeed correct, this is not a one way deal. I’ve posted two articles with facts and an argument based on that, which remains unaddressed to this point. Unaddressed beyond silly nitpicking, of course. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2012, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/240 "2012-07-08T03:08:54Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > It’s not clear how the reporter determined the race of those folks. The point here, which seems to have been lost over and over again, is that “looks black” is not a good scientific substitute for actual DNA analysis. It’s that simple. I understand that. But what I’m asking you is how accurate do you think the sportswriter is likely to be? I’m sure he’s guessing on some, and has some knowledge about the history of some. We’re talking about the starters here, some of whom have fairly well-known histories. For the others, he might guess, sure. But in total, what would you expect his level of accuracy to be? What would you expect your level of accuracy to be? If I said I’d give you $1,000 for every correct assessment and take away $1,000 for every correct assessment, how close to the maximum amount of $768,000 do you think you’d get? Secondarily, do you think the reporters assessments were wrong? How wrong? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414.md?page=13)