# Critique this: Why blacks run faster **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 6, 2012, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414 "2012-07-06T13:42:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2012, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/321 "2012-07-08T19:34:34Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I’m asking the degree which you think the reporters observations align not necessarily with self-reporting, but with the actual facts, if you were to give all those athletes genetic tests. The reason I ask is that you seem to want to discard a potential piece of evidence that the speed positions in the NFL are dominated by one race. If scientists tested all the athletes, we’d be able to determine that X% of the speed positions are held by Black athletes. The reporter says it’s Y%. How much would you expect X to deviate from Y? And do you think that delta is large enough to reasonable discount the reporter’s observations? > > Also, how well do you think you’d be able to do by making the same assessments the reporter did? I have no idea what you’re talking about because I don’t think you and I agree on what a “fact” is. Blacks are a race, as in a social construct, but they are not what geneticists would consider a “population”, since they are highly mixed group of people, genetically. As I noted above, they are the kind of people you purposely exclude from such genetic studies. Not only that, it’s a group of people whose genetics are rapidly changing over time. You’re shooting at a moving target. If you want to study the speed capabilities of various African populations, best go to Africa to do that. And you better hurry up, because those populations are mixing more and more over time, too. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2012, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/322 "2012-07-08T19:39:58Z")
From the USA Track & Field website. [http://www.usatf.org/Athlete-Bios.aspx](http://www.usatf.org/Athlete-Bios.aspx) Use the menu on the left to control for “Sprints”. Add this to the NFL observation. See any consistency? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2012, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/323 "2012-07-08T19:42:18Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > From the USA Track & Field website. [http://www.usatf.org/Athlete-Bios.aspx](http://www.usatf.org/Athlete-Bios.aspx) Use the menu on the left to control for “Sprints”. > > Add this to the NFL observation. See any consistency? Call me when you find the “sprint gene”. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2012, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/324 "2012-07-08T19:48:21Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I have no idea what you’re talking about because I don’t think you and I agree on what a “fact” is. Blacks are a race, as in a social construct, but they are not what geneticists would consider a “population”, since they are highly mixed group of people, genetically. As I noted above, they are the kind of people you purposely exclude from such genetic studies. Not only that, it’s a group of people whose genetics are rapidly changing over time. You’re shooting at a moving target. > > If you want to study the speed capabilities of various African populations, best go to Africa to do that. And you better hurry up, because those populations are mixing more and more over time, too. Okay, this gets at what I suspected. You will simply discount any evidence (not proof, _evidence_) that Blacks have a speed gene of sorts. Also, I made the point about looking at Blacks within a country is good because it largely eliminates culture as an explanation. You seem to be willing to go to extraordinary lengths of denial. Including, no doubt, my last cite regarding the USA Track & Field website. Tell me, if we looked at every college team in the U.S. and discovered that in every case all the speed position were held by Blacks (a minority that accounts just 16% of the American population, I would add), would that move you from your position? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2012, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/325 "2012-07-08T19:48:53Z")
> [@treis](#): > > No one doesn’t understand this. Everyone is perfectly aware that the designation black covers a broad swath of different peoples. That does not make it useless as an indicator. It makes it utterly useless when it is applied to science or even social programs in which individuals are going to be treated based on their assigned groups. There have been numerous threads where the argument has been put forth that because the fastest sprinters are black and the fastest marathon runners are black and a lot of NFL players are black that “blacks” are “better athletes” than whites. This despite the clear difference in ethnic composition of marathon runners and sprinters and the more than murky backgrounds of NFL linebackers. The whole point that “_the designation black covers a broad swath of different peoples_” means that any discussion of “black” people should be broken into several separate discussions of different groups who happen to share one single characteristic. Anyone who resorts to discussing “black” people, (or “white” people or any other overlarge group), begins by making unsupprotable and invariably incorrect generalizations, rendering the discussion rather useless. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2012, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/326 "2012-07-08T19:51:28Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Call me when you find the “sprint gene”. Do you think there seems to be one? If not, as I asked for earlier (maybe not of you), what explanation do you offer for the complete dominance of Blacks in the NFL speed positions and places on the American sprinting teams? Not to mention the world record holders. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2012, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/327 "2012-07-08T19:52:19Z")
Find the gene(s). Geneticist do this all the time. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2012, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/328 "2012-07-08T19:56:04Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Find the gene(s). Geneticist do this all the time. Fine. In there meantime: Do you think that blacks have a genetic advantage when it comes to speed? Surely you can offer an opinion. Participants on a message board do it all the time. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2012, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/329 "2012-07-08T20:07:24Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Do you think that blacks have a genetic advantage when it comes to speed? And my observations in post #325 are confirmed in a mere 8 minutes. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2012, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/330 "2012-07-08T20:11:22Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Fine. In there meantime: Do you think that blacks have a genetic advantage when it comes to speed? First of all, you really don’t even know how to frame the problem in a scientific way, so let me help you. Do I think the average black person can run faster than the average white person? I doubt it. That’s the question you are asking. The question that you probably want to ask is: does a “gene for speed” have a higher frequency among blacks than among whites? To that question, as a scientist, I would have to say I don’t know. If there was a genetic basis for what we see in football, it wouldn’t surprise me in the least if it was due to the fact that American blacks represent a population of highly mixed genetic ancestry. Wouldn’t surprise me if that turned out not to be the case, either. We just don’t know very much about this at all. It would behoove us to not rush to a conclusion until we saw the actual data supporting it. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2012, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/331 "2012-07-08T20:12:47Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > And my observations in post #325 are confirmed in a mere 8 minutes. Oh, please. Make it “blacks with West African ancestry”, as I’ve say repeatedly. No one in the discussion is unaware that’s what we’re talking about. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2012, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/332 "2012-07-08T20:18:30Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Oh, please. Make it “blacks with West African ancestry”, as I’ve say repeatedly. No one in the discussion is unaware that’s what we’re talking about. You still don’t understand. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2012, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/333 "2012-07-08T20:25:10Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Oh, please. Make it “blacks with West African ancestry”, as I’ve say repeatedly. No one in the discussion is unaware that’s what we’re talking about. My comment was not actually directed at you, (I’ll let you and John Mace hammer out your own issues), but at **treis** whose comment I challenge for the reason that your post demonstrated. The discussion in this thread is broader than simply a discussion of the NFL and making assumptions about what other posters “mean” is an excellent way to go haring off into further misunderstanding. Even with your adjustment from “blacks” to “blacks with West African ancestry” there is still an unspoken assumption regarding speed. Is it sprinting? Marathon? Some other charateristic that requires some level of speed over an unknown distance while wearing particular equipment? And while I am sure that you did intend your comment in a more limited way, (making an assumption regarding all the readers of this thread), the fact that you made that assumption leaves it open for other readers who did not share that assumption to come to different ideas regarding your intention. **treis** made the claim that it was fine to include multiple groups in a single identification, but as soon as you used your assumption-based single word, we find that it needed to be refined to a more particulate level. That was my objection to **treis** ’s statement. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2012, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/334 "2012-07-08T20:30:16Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > First of all, you really don’t even know how to frame the problem in a scientific way, so let me help you. Do I think the average black person can run faster than the average white person? I doubt it. That’s the question you are asking. No it is not what I’m asking. I’m asking if there seems to exist a gene, that when the person holding the gene is of perfect physiological health, that gene will enable him to outperform those who do not have that gene. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > The question that you probably want to ask is: does a “gene for speed” have a higher frequency among blacks than among whites? To that question, as a scientist, I would have to say I don’t know. I don’t know if you’re a scientist or not, but you are a participant on a message board. One on which you’ve opined hundreds of times. But suddenly, cat’s got your tongue. What I’m asking you is: based on the _evidence_ presented, do YOU _think_ that it is more likely or less likely that there is a “speed gene” that can be be tracked to West African descent? > [@John\_Mace](#): > > If there was a genetic basis for what we see in football, it wouldn’t surprise me in the least if it was due to the fact that American blacks represent a population of highly mixed genetic ancestry. Wouldn’t surprise me if that turned out not to be the case, either. We just don’t know very much about this at all. It would behoove us to not rush to a conclusion until we saw the actual data supporting it. Sure, there’s a lot we don’t know. But we do have _evidence_ that people whose ancestry can be traced back to West Africa have an advantage when it comes to elite speed. We see strong _evidence_ in the U.S., and on the world stage. You claim to be a scientist, but it seems that a social consideration is getting in the way of your dispassionate assessment of the evidence. Now, maybe you have another theory. Is it that when the West African gene interacts with a European gene, something magical happens? If so, I agree that that is a possibility. It that seems to require additional evidence before it seems to be a _more likely_ theory. For instance the percent of race-mixing in NFL players in speed positions, the members of the U.S. sprint teams, and the fastest people around the world. Do you have any knowledge as to what percents of those groups show race-mixing? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2012, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/335 "2012-07-08T20:30:23Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > My comment was not actually directed at you… But you quoted him before making that comment. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2012, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/336 "2012-07-08T20:32:25Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > No it is not what I’m asking. I’m asking if there seems to exist a gene, that when the person holding the gene is of perfect physiological health, that gene will enable him to outperform those who do not have that gene. > > I don’t know if you’re a scientist or not, but you are a participant on a message board. One on which you’ve opined hundreds of times. But suddenly, cat’s got your tongue. What I’m asking you is: based on the _evidence_ presented, do YOU _think_ that it is more likely or less likely that there is a “speed gene” that can be be tracked to West African descent? > > Sure, there’s a lot we don’t know. But we do have _evidence_ that people whose ancestry can be traced back to West Africa have an advantage when it comes to elite speed. We see strong _evidence_ in the U.S., and on the world stage. You claim to be a scientist, but it seems that a social consideration is getting in the way of your dispassionate assessment of the evidence. > > Now, maybe you have another theory. Is it that when the West African gene interacts with a European gene, something magical happens? If so, I agree that that is a possibility. It that seems to require additional evidence before it seems to be a _more likely_ theory. For instance the percent of race-mixing in NFL players in speed positions, the members of the U.S. sprint teams, and the fastest people around the world. Do you have any knowledge as to what percents of those groups show race-mixing? Dude. Sometimes “We don’t know” is the right answer. You want to force me into a yes or no answer, and we simply don’t have the data needed to make that decision. Your anecdotes are not scientific data. Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2012, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/337 "2012-07-08T20:32:33Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > You still don’t understand. What do you think I don’t understand? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2012, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/338 "2012-07-08T20:40:15Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Dude. Sometimes “We don’t know” is the right answer. You want to force me into a yes or no answer, and we simply don’t have the data needed to make that decision. Your anecdotes are not scientific data. Sorry. I’m not asking whet we “know”. I’m asking you to simply assess the evidence that is on the table and share your opinion. You know, the kind of things that scientists do all the time. And then when more information comes in they refine their assessments. I’m not asking you to stake out a position and you’ll have to live and die by it forever, but simply: based on the evidence on the table, what do you think? Given your level of participation on these message boards, I find your clinging onto _not_ providing an opinion due to lack of absolute information exceedingly odd. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2012, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/339 "2012-07-08T20:52:38Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I’m not asking whet we “know”. I’m asking you to simply assess the evidence that is on the table and share your opinion. You know, the kind of things that scientists do all the time. And then when more information comes in they refine their assessments. No, they don’t do this all the time. They look at the data that is available, how it was collected, and often agree that no conclusion can be reached. And that’s the case here. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2012, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/340 "2012-07-08T20:56:26Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > It makes it utterly useless when it is applied to science or even social programs in which individuals are going to be treated based on their assigned groups. No, it makes it less useful, not useless. Grouping all black people together simply reduces the signal to noise ratio. For example, let’s posit that what we group together as black in America is genetically best described as 100 groupings. Of those 100 groupings, 10 have a higher incidence of genes that cause a greater ratio of fast twitch muscles, resulting in superior speed, while the 90 remaining are essentially the same as Caucasians. If we test black people vs. white people in terms of speed, we will see an advantage for black people wholly caused by those 10 subsets of black people. It’s no different from BMI. BMI groups elite athletes, extremely active fat people, and couch potatoes who’s exercise consists only of lifting the remote. Does it make sense to group those people together? Of course not. They are about as different as can be. Does that mean BMI is useless? Absolutely not. Similarly, of course it would be better if we dispensed with the broad terms black, asian, caucasian, etc. and went with classifications based on genetic similarity. Just like it would be better if we used something that split high BMIs into athletes and couch potatoes. Why don’t we? Because it is a lot harder to do. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414.md?page=18)