# Critique this: Why blacks run faster **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 6, 2012, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414 "2012-07-06T13:42:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/361 "2012-07-09T00:38:28Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Just to be clear, are the cultural priorities selecting against whites in speed positions or blacks on the O-Line? In other words, is the culture failing to develop genetically advantaged whites into speed positions or failing to develop genetically advantaged blacks into O-Line positions? > > What is your proposed mechanism for this? In other words, what happens to the fast 5-10 to 6’ white football players or the big 6’4"+ black football players that prevents them from reaching the NFL? Coaches take a look at them and divert them to other positions, based on their biases towards what those positions look like (with regards to the O-line - there are quite a number of black linemen, are there not? I’d have to see some numbers on this that they’re disproportionately represented. Basically, all coaches are looking for there initially is “big fat guy with good feet”). It’s the Moneyball/Blind Side story all over again - we assume that these coaches all know what they’re doing, and I suppose they do to an extent, but they’re for the most part all just doing whatever teams before them have done, because there’s no inherent penalty for following the standard playbook. There’s a heavy selection pressure at all levels of football, although that’s changing to some extent - look specifically at the number of black QBs who make it to the NFL now. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/362 "2012-07-09T00:43:57Z")
> [@Raygun99](#): > > Well, firstly, in the case of Norway, their sub-Saharan population is almost non-existent. [Cite.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Norway#Ethnicity) But again, they are focused on winning medals - but in skiing events. They’re a world dominant power in cross-country skiing, and win well out of proportion to their population, which is only 5 million. It’s as if the city of Boston were able to enter the Olympics, and dominate. The likely reason why? Norwegians really, really care about cross-country skiing, to the same degree that Canadians care about hockey, the Dutch about speed skating, Ethiopians care about the marathon and Jamaicans care about the 100m sprint. > > Because there are numerous opportunities for female athletes in a variety of sports in America. America’s potential female sprinters are being pulled away to play soccer, softball, basketball, hockey, swimming, speed skating (which come on, has an obvious sprinting parallel) - you name it. Now, these other countries’ female athletes are also being pulled away to these sports - but they also don’t have as many black athletes to fill those other spots. > > This brings me to the larger point I was getting at with the baseball comparison, which was made in the article I linked, but I didn’t spell out - there just aren’t as many opportunities to play baseball in a number of areas where African-Americans exist - baseball diamonds are disappearing, both because they’re expensive to maintain and because there’s less interest in the sport, as a cultural shift happens towards other sports. Sprinting, meanwhile, is cheap. It’s the athletic opportunity most black kids are given, so they take it, practice it, and get good at it. > > Some more cultural examples - Saskatchewan produces well more professional hockey players per capita than any region in the world, even compared to the rest of Canada. The probable reason why - every small town has an ice rink, even if the population is just a couple of hundred people (I came from such a town). You can have just about as much ice time as you want. Meanwhile, ice time in larger centers is hard to come by and expensive when it is. > > And, Australia. After a disastrous 1976 Olympics, the Australian government plowed millions of dollars into the Institute of Sport, with a specific focus on training medal winners, They’ve since turned into a powerhouse nation finishing consistently in the top 10 (top 5, sometimes) despite have only 20 million people. > > It’s all about priorities. Do all these stories constitute proof? No, and I’m not saying they do. But the evidence sure seems to weigh heavier to that side. First, and most importantly, since you seem to miss it or not accept it: there are sports skills that have to be acquired and those that do not. Hockey, baseball, diving, fencing, etc. Sprinting is not like that. You are either fast or you aren’t. Everyone participates in it from a young age, so the cultural component is absent. You are correct that sprinting requires no ball field. But that only means that ALL can participate. So, whites aren’t excluded. In fact, most wealthier schools have tracks circling their football fields, so those kids should theoretically have a heightened awareness of running as a full-fledged sport. As far as African-Americans and baseball, I doubt there used to be more opportunity for them to play the there is now. I’m not saying you’re necessarily wrong, but I think you need some evidence for that claim. As fas as the opportunities for female athletes in America, like my initial point, that only means that each sport has the full spectrum of young women available to compete in it. Now, it could very well be that the fastest white girls are gravitating toward soccer. But those who are fast know they are fast. Their coaches at their high schools and colleges now that are fast. And more important: _how fast_. Don’t you think a coach would grab a girl he thinks has world-class speed and say, “hey, have you tried out for the track team”? Schools would love to have an Olympic medalist from their school. No, the logical explanation is that the kids on the soccer team, even the really fast ones, are not as fast as the kids on the sprinting team. Also, most men soccer players don’t have the body type you might associate with world class sprinters. I would expect the same is true for females athletes. Finally (and your first point), a country’s interest in a sport can only take you so far. Kenyans probably aren’t to be sending people to The World’s Strongest Man competition, no matter what they do. Because lifting really heavy weight has a large natural physique aspect and Kenyans don’t have the mass of say, Icelanders. Skiing has a strong cultural component. First you need access, then you need interest to translate into training. Another sport that has a strong cultural component is lacrosse. Look at the best lacrosse teams in the country and you’ll see almost exclusively white kids. But I know a college lacrosse coach back east that has been actively recruiting black kids, particularly students from Africa who have never played the sport. He expects that his starting team will be about half black in two years. The reason is that they have the important natural ability component—speed—and he can teach them the rest. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/363 "2012-07-09T00:47:27Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > So, let’s be precise. What, exactly, is this evidence? Do you have a large sample size? Elite athletes in sports that are primarily about speed or other fast twitch traits are heavily black. In specific sports, positions that require more speed are also heavily black. For example, in football the % of whites strongly correlates against the positions requirements for speed. > [@jsgoddess](#): > > How would you react if I said, “Evidence suggests the genetic potential for elite politicians is higher in men than women”? I would say that it is highly dubious for many reasons. To name a few, there is no objective measure for what makes a good politician, a weak link to any specific political advantage and a genetic trait, and the nebulous nature of what makes a good politician. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/364 "2012-07-09T00:48:27Z")
> [@treis](#): > > None of this addresses what I said. You claim that grouping black people together is “useless”, when it clearly isn’t. Talking about “blacks” as if a “black race” existed is worse than useless. > [@treis](#): > > There’s nothing wrong with using the information you have to draw the best conclusion you can. When the “information you have” is based on overbroad categories or is incomplete or otherwise flawed, the “best conclusion” is pretty well guranteed to be flawed–or utterly wrong. Why bother use inadequate information just because getting good information “is hard” when the genuine information is actually out there? Why is it not preferable to use John Mace’s response of “we don’t know”? ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/365 "2012-07-09T00:48:34Z")
> [@Raygun99](#): > > Coaches take a look at them and divert them to other positions, based on their biases towards what those positions look like (with regards to the O-line - there are quite a number of black linemen, are there not? I’d have to see some numbers on this that they’re disproportionately represented. Basically, all coaches are looking for there initially is “big fat guy with good feet”). > > It’s the Moneyball/Blind Side story all over again - we assume that these coaches all know what they’re doing, and I suppose they do to an extent, but they’re for the most part all just doing whatever teams before them have done, because there’s no inherent penalty for following the standard playbook. There’s a heavy selection pressure at all levels of football, although that’s changing to some extent - look specifically at the number of black QBs who make it to the NFL now. You didn’t answer my first question. When you say coaches are looking for a “big fat guy with good feet”, does that mean they are not culturally biasing who becomes a NFL offensive lineman? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/366 "2012-07-09T00:49:22Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Just to be clear, are the cultural priorities selecting against whites in speed positions or blacks on the O-Line? In other words, is the culture failing to develop genetically advantaged whites into speed positions or failing to develop genetically advantaged blacks into O-Line positions? I’m a bit confused. Are you under the impression that African-Americans are underrepresented in both the Offensive and Defensive lines? That’s not true. Yes, for a long time, blacks looking to be offensive linemen were shifted to other positions because the stereotype was that you had to be “smart” to play the offensive line which was also the reason blacks were discouraged from being quarterbacks, but that ended long ago. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/367 "2012-07-09T00:50:08Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Talking about “blacks” as if a “black race” existed is worse than useless. _gasp_ is it super duper wuper useless? > [@tomndebb](#): > > When the “information you have” is based on overbroad categories or is incomplete or otherwise flawed, the “best conclusion” is pretty well guranteed to be flawed–or utterly wrong. Why bother use inadequate information just because getting good information “is hard” when the genuine information is actually out there? Why is it not preferable to use John Mace’s response of “we don’t know”? I don’t know. Why don’t you ask the side that just argues culture and discounts any genetic basis? ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/368 "2012-07-09T00:51:24Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I’m a bit confused. > > Are you under the impression that African-Americans are underrepresented in both the Offensive and Defensive lines? > > That’s not true. > > Yes, for a long time, blacks looking to be offensive linemen were shifted to other positions because the stereotype was that you had to be “smart” to play the offensive line which was also the reason blacks were discouraged from being quarterbacks, but that ended long ago. I’m sorry, before I respond I need to know how you are defining blacks and African-Americans. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/369 "2012-07-09T00:51:27Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > So, let’s be precise. What, exactly, is this evidence? Do you have a large sample size? > > How would you react if I said, “Evidence suggests the genetic potential for elite politicians is higher in men than women”? Not to answer for tries, but it seems that being a politician is the result of a lot of various acquired skills. Unlike sprinting which requires simply that you’re able to run. You’re then able to do that really quickly or not. As far as sample size, I’d say the number of grade school, high school, and college athletes is a pretty good sample size. Would you? We have the more athletic kids gravitating towards sports. We then have kids making the various teams. We then have the best HS athletes being recruited to colleges, where the elite among them would love to become professional athletes. Of those whom do, when we look at those positions that mandate great speed, like the speed positions in the NFL, or the U.S. sprinting team, you get almost exclusively Black athletes. And you should keep in mind that Blacks are a pretty small minority in the U.S. Only about 16%. The results are absolutely striking. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/370 "2012-07-09T00:56:42Z")
> [@treis](#): > > I’m sorry, before I respond I need to know how you are defining blacks and African-Americans. Well, since you were the one who was making the claim that “blacks” were underrepresented on “the O-line”, I was using your definition. I thought that was obvious. Apologies. Anyway, I’m pretty sure you’re factually wrong or do you have evidence that they are underrepresented in those positions? ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/371 "2012-07-09T00:56:47Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > First, and most importantly, since you seem to miss it or not accept it: there are sports skills that have to be acquired and those that do not. Hockey, baseball, diving, fencing, etc. Sprinting is not like that. You are either fast or you aren’t. Everyone participates in it from a young age, so the cultural component is absent. You are correct that sprinting requires no ball field. But that only means that ALL can participate. So, whites aren’t excluded. In fact, most wealthier schools have tracks circling their football fields, so those kids should theoretically have a heightened awareness of running as a full-fledged sport. > > As far as African-Americans and baseball, I doubt there used to be more opportunity for them to play the there is now. I’m not saying you’re necessarily wrong, but I think you need some evidence for that claim. > > As fas as the opportunities for female athletes in America, like my initial point, that only means that each sport has the full spectrum of young women available to compete in it. Now, it could very well be that the fastest white girls are gravitating toward soccer. But those who are fast know they are fast. Their coaches at their high schools and colleges now that are fast. And more important: _how fast_. Don’t you think a coach would grab a girl he thinks has world-class speed and say, “hey, have you tried out for the track team”? Schools would love to have an Olympic medalist from their school. No, the logical explanation is that the kids on the soccer team, even the really fast ones, are not as fast as the kids on the sprinting team. Also, most men soccer players don’t have the body type you might associate with world class sprinters. I would expect the same is true for females athletes. > > Finally (and your first point), a country’s interest in a sport can only take you so far. Kenyans probably aren’t to be sending people to The World’s Strongest Man competition, no matter what they do. Because lifting really heavy weight has a large natural physique aspect and Kenyans don’t have the mass of say, Icelanders. Skiing has a strong cultural component. First you need access, then you need interest to translate into training. Another sport that has a strong cultural component is lacrosse. Look at the best lacrosse teams in the country and you’ll see almost exclusively white kids. But I know a college lacrosse coach back east that has been actively recruiting black kids, particularly students from Africa who have never played the sport. He expects that his starting team will be about half black in two years. The reason is that they have the important natural ability component—speed—and he can teach them the rest. These are _all_ points easily explained by opportunity and priority and specialization. The body type is another Moneyball statement - look at Usain Bolt, who is the complete opposite body type of what world class sprinters are supposed to look like. Fast white Canadians are diverted into hockey. Fast white Americans are diverted into baseball, football, you name it. They then receive the training _for that sport_ and not specifically on speed. As much as you say “you’re either fast or you’re not”, it’s just not that simple. There’s a ton of technique that goes into running and at the higher level of coaching, it’s just not overcomeable by naturally fast “amateurs”. And I mean, lacrosse, could you pick a worse example? Jim Brown was a hall of fame lacrosse player. But his priority was football and he could make more money at it (besides, lacrosse is only sort of a speed sport - it’s much more about toughness/strength and hand-eye coordination). It’s what you’re given the opportunity to do. You’re assuming that all these coaches are making perfect decisions all the way through the line, and we know for a fact that they’re not. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/372 "2012-07-09T00:59:00Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Elite athletes in sports that are primarily about speed or other fast twitch traits are heavily black. In specific sports, positions that require more speed are also heavily black. For example, in football the % of whites strongly correlates against the positions requirements for speed. So, how many people are we talking about? How many years worth of data, and what is the breakdown? Which sports specifically, and at what levels? ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/373 "2012-07-09T01:00:14Z")
> [@treis](#): > > You didn’t answer my first question. When you say coaches are looking for a “big fat guy with good feet”, does that mean they are not culturally biasing who becomes a NFL offensive lineman? I don’t believe they are, no, but I’m willing to look at evidence that they are. Do you have a breakdown on this? My anecdotal impression is that o-line is a fairly even split among black and white players. I would explain this by the fact that o-line is not viewed as a marquee or skill position and has a very specific size requirement. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/374 "2012-07-09T01:03:19Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I’m a bit confused. > > Are you under the impression that African-Americans are underrepresented in both the Offensive and Defensive lines? > > That’s not true. > > Yes, for a long time, blacks looking to be offensive linemen were shifted to other positions because the stereotype was that you had to be “smart” to play the offensive line which was also the reason blacks were discouraged from being quarterbacks, but that ended long ago. So there is no cultural bias currently against blacks in the NFL pipeline? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/375 "2012-07-09T01:06:03Z")
> [@Raygun99](#): > > These are _all_ points easily explained by opportunity and priority and specialization. The body type is another Moneyball statement - look at Usain Bolt, who is the complete opposite body type of what world class sprinters are supposed to look like. Fast white Canadians are diverted into hockey. Fast white Americans are diverted into baseball, football, you name it. They then receive the training _for that sport_ and not specifically on speed. As much as you say “you’re either fast or you’re not”, it’s just not that simple. There’s a ton of technique that goes into running and at the higher level of coaching, it’s just not overcomeable by naturally fast “amateurs”. And given the incredible amount of training sprinters (and all people in that caliber of athletics) do, the races still come down to fractions of a second. I would find it remarkable if someone can lose by the tiniest fraction of a second because they don’t have enough West African blood. Those are some pretty damned specific genes! ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/376 "2012-07-09T01:06:47Z")
> [@treis](#): > > So there is no cultural bias currently against blacks in the NFL pipeline? I don’t know. Anyway, you claimed that African-Americans were underrepresented in the line positions. Could you please provide a cite? Thanks ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/377 "2012-07-09T01:11:57Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Another sport that has a strong cultural component is lacrosse. Look at the best lacrosse teams in the country and you’ll see almost exclusively white kids. But I know a college lacrosse coach back east that has been actively recruiting black kids, particularly students from Africa who have never played the sport. He expects that his starting team will be about half black in two years. The reason is that they have the important natural ability component—speed—and he can teach them the rest. Could you please provide a cite to show that there is a college coach deliberately recruiting people who’ve never played lacrosse. Lacrosse is an extremely difficult sport that takes years to develop. What you’re claiming is not unlike a hockey coach recruiting people who’ve never played hockey. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/378 "2012-07-09T01:24:55Z")
> [@Raygun99](#): > > I don’t believe they are, no, but I’m willing to look at evidence that they are. Do you have a breakdown on this? My anecdotal impression is that o-line is a fairly even split among black and white players. I would explain this by the fact that o-line is not viewed as a marquee or skill position and has a very specific size requirement. The problem is that this doesn’t pass the smell test. Football positions are heavily influenced by size and speed. If you’re \<6 foot and fast, you are going to be a DB, CB, RB, or WR depending on how bulky you are. So while there could be cultural influences amongst those positions, they are within that group. In other words, if you are 5’10", you simply aren’t going to be a LB, OL, or DL. What that means is that a shortage of white players at the RB or CB position is not because they are being shunted into the LB or TE spots. The point is, where are the 5’10" fast white football players? ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/379 "2012-07-09T01:26:44Z")
Playing baseball, soccer, or not playing sports at all. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/380 "2012-07-09T01:26:58Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I don’t know. > > Anyway, you claimed that African-Americans were underrepresented in the line positions. > > Could you please provide a cite? > > Thanks I haven’t claimed that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414.md?page=20)