# Critique this: Why blacks run faster **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 6, 2012, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414 "2012-07-06T13:42:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/381 "2012-07-09T01:29:07Z")
> [@Raygun99](#): > > Playing baseball, soccer, or not playing sports at all. Why would that depend on height? It makes no sense. ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/382 "2012-07-09T01:32:21Z")
Because they don’t look like what football coaches expect a running back to look like, or they never play football to begin with. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/383 "2012-07-09T01:36:52Z")
> [@Raygun99](#): > > These are _all_ points easily explained by opportunity and priority and specialization. The body type is another Moneyball statement - look at Usain Bolt, who is the complete opposite body type of what world class sprinters are supposed to look like. Fast white Canadians are diverted into hockey. Fast white Americans are diverted into baseball, football, you name it. Well, they must not be diverted into football, because they’re not making it to the NFL at those positions. The truth is they’re simply not fast enough. > [@Raygun99](#): > > They then receive the training _for that sport_ and not specifically on speed. As much as you say “you’re either fast or you’re not”, it’s just not that simple. There’s a ton of technique that goes into running and at the higher level of coaching, it’s just not overcomeable by naturally fast “amateurs”. It really is that simple. People can improve their speed through training and coaching, but the ranking you have without the training is pretty much the same post-training. The slower kids will get faster, the fast kids will get faster, but the really fast kids will get faster, too. Anecdote: I’ve played sports my whole life. The kids who were the fastest in 6th grade were the fattest kids in 9th grade and 12th grade, with the rare exception of a kid whose body changed dramatically during adolescence. But even those kids (that I know) never turned into one of the fastest. And for myself, I was a flanker and cornerback…pretty fast. But more quick than fast, really. I tried to improve me speed, because there were a few kids faster than me. I never moved up one spot. In fact, Allan R. and Richie A. remained the fastest kids in the school, with zero extra work. > [@Raygun99](#): > > And I mean, lacrosse, could you pick a worse example? Jim Brown was a hall of fame lacrosse player. But his priority was football and he could make more money at it (besides, lacrosse is only sort of a speed sport - it’s much more about toughness/strength and hand-eye coordination). It’s what you’re given the opportunity to do. You’re assuming that all these coaches are making perfect decisions all the way through the line, and we know for a fact that they’re not. You miss my pont. I chose lacrosse as as example because for some positions quickness and speed are crucial. And the coach I know is taking kids with the main raw ingredient (along with general athletic ability) and teaching them the skill part. So while lacrosse is a bad sport to look at now because of the strong white cultural bias, 20, 30 40 years from now it might be more like football, where the speed positions would be dominated by Blacks. I didn’t know that about Jim Brown, though. Interesting. Awesome athlete. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/384 "2012-07-09T01:39:49Z")
> [@Raygun99](#): > > Because they don’t look like what football coaches expect a running back to look like, or they never play football to begin with. This not only doesn’t pass the smell test, it borders on being ridiculous. (1) Football coaches can’t tell when kids are 10, 11, and 12 whether they are going to be 5’10" or 6’2". (2) They aren’t going to look at a built and fast, but short white kid and tell him to play a different sport. (3) It doesn’t make sense for them to be culturally unbiased at one position (OL) and so absurdly biased at another (RB) to the point where 0 of them made it as starters in the NFL. ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/385 "2012-07-09T01:47:32Z")
It’s not that the white kids are shunted out of the sport, it’s that they are biased themselves to different sports, or simply don’t play sports at all. As for not making sense that one position would be biased and another not, I again point you towards QBs. ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/386 "2012-07-09T01:49:17Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > It really is that simple. People can improve their speed through training and coaching, but the ranking you have without the training is pretty much the same post-training. The slower kids will get faster, the fast kids will get faster, but the really fast kids will get faster, too. It really, really, isn’t. Very few people get by on pure athleticism. As talented as he is, Usain Bolt would be just another “pretty fast guy” if he hadn’t received top training all the way through his life. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/387 "2012-07-09T01:52:43Z")
The _kids you saw running_ who were the fastest in the sixth grade, etc. There are always those kids you never saw running or never started running, among other people, and those who maybe started running but got diverted to something else, like, say, computer programming. And you’re also forgetting the Matthew effect in which social and cultural influences tend to seize on a small initial difference and cause them to be exaggerated over time. It’s essentially a kind of self-fulfilling prophecy. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/388 "2012-07-09T01:54:00Z")
> [@Raygun99](#): > > It’s not that the white kids are shunted out of the sport, it’s that they are biased themselves to different sports, or simply don’t play sports at all. Again, just doesn’t pass the smell test. Why would 3" in height difference cause such drastically different choices? > [@Raygun99](#): > > As for not making sense that one position would be biased and another not, I again point you towards QBs. QB is a unique position, and I agree could be subject to heavy cultural bias. Mostly because it is such a skill based position. If you don’t start playing QB, you won’t end up there. On the other hand, all of the other positions are easily changed. Players changing position when they go from high school to college happens all the time, and even occurs going from college to the pros. ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/389 "2012-07-09T01:55:25Z")
> [@Raygun99](#): > > It’s not that the white kids are shunted out of the sport, it’s that they are biased themselves to different sports, or simply don’t play sports at all. As for not making sense that one position would be biased and another not, I again point you towards QBs. And you know, I actually take that first thing back. Little white guys, in my experience, were advised not to play hockey growing up, because people didn’t believe they could handle the sport. I don’t see it out of the realm of possibility that little white boys are advised not to play football, while little black boys are encouraged, since we know there’s a path for them to follow. Social pressures are gigantic. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/390 "2012-07-09T02:01:38Z")
> [@Raygun99](#): > > It really, really, isn’t. Very few people get by on pure athleticism. As talented as he is, Usain Bolt would be just another “pretty fast guy” if he hadn’t received top training all the way through his life. It depends on what you mean by “get by”. There are plenty of great natural athletes who get by in high school without doing squat. Some at small colleges. Maybe a few in elite athletic programs. And even fewer in the professional sports. Even the speed positions in the NFL. Nad while coaching, training and dedication are required for an elite sprinter to be successful, the main reason someone is considered to even be in near the same league as Usain Bolt is that they’re just plain fast. And they’ve been fast their whole lives. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/391 "2012-07-09T02:03:37Z")
> [@treis](#): > > I haven’t claimed that. Apologies, when you posted; > [@](#): > > **treis** > Just to be clear, are the cultural priorities selecting against whites in speed positions or blacks on the O-Line? In other words, is the culture failing to develop genetically advantaged whites into speed positions or failing to develop genetically advantaged blacks into O-Line positions? > > What is your proposed mechanism for this? In other words, what happens to the fast 5-10 to 6’ white football players or the big 6’4"+ black football players that prevents them from reaching the NFL? And; > [@](#): > > **treis** > How do you explain the discrepancy in football positions? I rather reasonably assumed that you were saying that “blacks”(as you define them) were underrepresented at those positions. It seemed that was the logical explanation for your posts. I apologize for taking your posts and face value and assuming and that the logical understandings of them conveyed your beliefs. I won’t make that mistake again. That being said, would you please explain then what you were asking, because I really don’t understand then what you were saying? Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/392 "2012-07-09T02:06:53Z")
> [@treis](#): > > The point is, where are the 5’10" fast white football players? Do Steve Largent and Wes Welker count or do they have to be exactly 5’10" which most wide receivers in the NFL aren’t? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/393 "2012-07-09T02:07:06Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Could you please provide a cite to show that there is a college coach deliberately recruiting people who’ve never played lacrosse. Sorry. I can’t. The coach I know told me this in December when I ran into him. He’s a coach at a smaller college and I’d rather not reveal more. So feel free to assume I was lying about that if you’d like. > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Lacrosse is an extremely difficult sport that takes years to develop. What you’re claiming is not unlike a hockey coach recruiting people who’ve never played hockey. To a degree. But a good athlete can pick it up rather quickly. And you could play the sport for years and just be so-so, for lack of speed. Whereas if you are the fastest kid on the filed and acquire pretty good skills, your future in the sport looks brighter. ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/394 "2012-07-09T02:09:30Z")
> [@Raygun99](#): > > Social pressures are gigantic. So you think there’s social pressure in track and field to put black people on the sprints, and white people on the strength events? Because world champion sprinters are always of West African ancestry, and world champion shotputtters/hammer throwers are always of North/Northeastern European ancestry. Seriously, answer just that one to my satisfaction. Can you? I doubt it. What would be the nature of the social pressure, to begin with? Why would it exist? If you say “I don’t know, but it must be there”, then I suggest you start a religion, because that’s the level of arguing you’re at–pure faith. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/395 "2012-07-09T02:10:32Z")
NM. I missed a post. Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/396 "2012-07-09T02:15:33Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Apologies, when you posted; > > And; > > I rather reasonably assumed that you were saying that “blacks”(as you define them) were underrepresented at those positions. > > It seemed that was the logical explanation for your posts. > > I apologize for taking your posts and face value and assuming and that the logical understandings of them conveyed your beliefs. > > I won’t make that mistake again. > > That being said, would you please explain then what you were asking, because I really don’t understand then what you were saying? > > Thanks. Virtually every WR, RB, and CB in the NFL is black, while on the offensive line the mix is 50/50. Why those breakdowns are different needs to be explained. If you are saying it is because of culture, then the question becomes what is being selected against. Is the football culture discarding fast whites or not developing big blacks? I.E. should the WR, RB, and CB breakdown be 50/50 like the OL, or should the OL be virtually all black like the WR, RB, and CB spots. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/397 "2012-07-09T02:18:47Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > So you think there’s social pressure in track and field to put black people on the sprints, and white people on the strength events? > > Because world champion sprinters are always of West African ancestry, and world champion shotputtters/hammer throwers are always of North/Northeastern European ancestry. Do you think that genetics really is the reason why the world champion shot putters/hammer throwers etc. are “always of North/Northeastern European ancestry”(using your definition of the term)? Do you also then think that genetics was why the 1988 Olympic Gold medal winning Soviet Basketball team was dominated by Lithuanians? For myself, I think Warren Sapp and countless others could have been really good shot putters, discus throwers, etc. if they’d concentrated on it. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/398 "2012-07-09T02:21:56Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Virtually every WR, RB, and CB in the NFL is black, while on the offensive line the mix is 50/50. Why those breakdowns are different needs to be explained. If you are saying it is because of culture, then the question becomes what is being selected against. Is the football culture discarding fast whites or not developing big blacks? I.E. should the WR, RB, and CB breakdown be 50/50 like the OL, or should the OL be virtually all black like the WR, RB, and CB spots. And do you think genetics or culture was was the Soviet Basketball team that won the 1988 Olympics was dominated by Lithuanians, who made up less than 1% of their population was likely due to genetics or likely due to culture? ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/399 "2012-07-09T02:22:06Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > So you think there’s social pressure in track and field to put black people on the sprints, and white people on the strength events? > > Because world champion sprinters are always of West African ancestry, and world champion shotputtters/hammer throwers are always of North/Northeastern European ancestry. > > Seriously, answer just that one to my satisfaction. > > Can you? > > I doubt it. What would be the nature of the social pressure, to begin with? Why would it exist? Because Americans care about sprinting events more, and Eastern European countries care about strength events more. It’s not particularly difficult. It’s why Canadians are good at hockey, Indians are good at cricket and the Japanese at sumo. They care. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/400 "2012-07-09T02:29:51Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > And do you think genetics or culture was was the Soviet Basketball team that won the 1988 Olympics was dominated by Lithuanians, who made up less than 1% of their population was likely due to genetics or likely due to culture? This is a ridiculous argument. You are talking about one team, for one year, where 4 out of 12 came from one country. Something that hadn’t happened before and hasn’t occurred since. It’s not like Lithuanians dominated the basketball world at that time, nor was the American team heavily represented by Lithuanian-Americans. In short, it was a fluke. Tough for you to argue a Lithuanian genetic advantage in basketball when there are 0 currently playing in the NBA. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414.md?page=21)