# Critique this: Why blacks run faster **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 6, 2012, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414 "2012-07-06T13:42:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 25
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/481 "2012-07-10T17:51:17Z")
> [@NojNoj](#): > > Evidence for that? > > (And we’re talking about ancestral environment here, not relatively recent population shifts due to Arab conquests, etc.) [This figure](http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v464/n7290/fig_tab/nature08976_F3.html), from a study comparing mitochondrial DNA of various populations of human with two extinct hominins, shows that many African populations are actually more closely related to European and Asian populations than other African populations. For example, the Bamileke of Cameroon are actually more closely related (by mitochondrial DNA- which tracks matrilineal descent) to Asian and European populations then to certain African populations like the San and Kikuyu. There are many other African populations showing similar counter-intuitive genetic relationships- at least by mitochondrial DNA. But this would actually be expected based on the “Out of Africa” theory of human evolution. Let’s say (in a simplified model) that the first modern humans were somewhere in Eastern Africa, and let’s call them population X. At some point, population X split into other populations that settled elsewhere- let’s call them Xa, Xb, Xc, etc. And then those populations split and migrated- and let’s say that Xbb was the first to leave Africa (and became ancestors of all Eurasians). Well it turns out that some other populations that stayed in Africa, like Xba, are actually more closely related to Xbb and the Eurasian descendants then to Xa and Xc. And we find evidence of something like this- though it was of course more complicated- there was always genetic exchange between neighboring populations, and sometimes even between more separated ones. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/482 "2012-07-10T17:52:39Z")
> [@NojNoj](#): > > Again, this is specious and sort of sophistry. Adaptations can spread among a broad group of people who share a geographic region. That they have other dramatic differences in their genome doesn’t affect the fact that they share a particular genetic adaptation (in this case, body type; which is clearly related to their environment (i.e., being lean and long-limbed helps with heat regulation)). Sure, but you haven’t posted any evidence for such adaptations in _all sub-Saharan African_ populations- or anything even close. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/483 "2012-07-10T18:07:19Z")
> [@NojNoj](#): > > Not sure you understood. I did understand you. The science doesn’t support you here, and the contention is not political. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/484 "2012-07-10T18:18:56Z")
> [@NojNoj](#): > > :smack: > > I have made an attempt to wade through the 10 pages here, and the argument that there’s a strong cultural bias among U.S. blacks for sprinting events is the biggest example of sophistry, and detached intellectualizing in the service of political posturing, I’ve seen. (Except for what I write…:dubious:) > > P.s., emoticons are cool If it was only “whites” that African-Americans and Jamaicans beating out when it came to producing sprinting champions your argument would be stronger, but “whites” aren’t the only ones they’re beating out. Dominicans and Cubans are also overwhelming of West African descent and yet they haven’t been producing any world class sprinters. For that matter Brazil has more people of West African descent and people who are, by your definition, “black” than any country and yet they also haven’t produced any sprinters. At the very least, culture is almost certainly the reason why there are so many more African-American and Jamaican world class sprinters than Dominicans, Cubans, Haitians, and Brazilians. Why is it so hard to think that culture is a reason why African-Americans beat out Brazilians and Dominicans when it comes to developing sprinters but not when it comes to producing more sprinters than white Americans? ---
**Author:** ![NojNoj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/2bfe46/32.png) [@NojNoj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NojNoj)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/485 "2012-07-10T18:26:32Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Why is it so hard to think that culture is a reason why African-Americans beat out Brazilians and Dominicans when it comes to developing sprinters but not when it comes to producing more sprinters than white Americans? I agree cultural factors could be at play in Africa-Americans beating out Brazilians, etc. (U.S. could just give more support to runners), but are the cultural factors affecting white and blacks in the U.S. so different that Whites would gravitate to middle distance events and blacks to shorter distances? I’m having trouble imagining how that would even play out on a typical high school / YMCA track team? ---
**Author:** ![NojNoj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/2bfe46/32.png) [@NojNoj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NojNoj)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/486 "2012-07-10T18:28:53Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > [URL=“[The complete mitochondrial DNA genome of an unknown hominin from southern Siberia | Nature](http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v464/n7290/fig_tab/nature08976_F3.html)”] There are many other African populations showing similar counter-intuitive genetic relationships- at least by mitochondrial DNA. We’re talking about ability in endurance running–what part of the phenotype that influences that ability does mitochondrial DNA affect? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/487 "2012-07-10T18:35:10Z")
> [@NojNoj](#): > > We’re talking about ability in endurance running–what part of the phenotype that influences that ability does mitochondrial DNA affect? You asked me to provide evidence that some African populations are more closely related to Eurasian populations than to some other African populations. That’s what I did. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/488 "2012-07-10T18:44:33Z")
> [@NojNoj](#): > > We’re talking about ability in endurance running–what part of the phenotype that influences that ability does mitochondrial DNA affect? He’s not the one trying to show a genetic link in endurance running. When you have a genetic hypothesis, the burden of proof is on you to show it exists, rather than (1) assuming it exists in the first place or (2) asking other people to prove it for you. ---
**Author:** ![NojNoj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/2bfe46/32.png) [@NojNoj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NojNoj)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/489 "2012-07-10T18:45:52Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > You asked me to provide evidence that some African populations are more closely related to Eurasian populations than to some other African populations. That’s what I did. In an abstract, theoretical way, I agree with you. But it’s just that–an entirely abstract point (thus “sophistry”) that’s not relevant to the idea that sub-Saharan peoples tend to have a similar body type (whether or not the rest of their genome is the same isn’t relevant). This is actually a very prevalent and widely accepted theory among people who study biomechanics. I.e., sub-Saharan people, very early on, evolved long limbs and low volume torso’s as a way to manage heat. By chance, these features help with endurance running… (And that different groups within sub-Sahara evolved far away from each other doesn’t mean they didn’t keep that trait.) And again, you seem to use the word “science” in some utopian, idealized way that rarely exist. I can’t point you to any study that what I described is definitely the case, because no one’s going to fund that study, and it would be unethical to run any sort of experiment that would prove it. Similarly, no one’s run definite experiments to show speciation occurs naturally over time, and no one’s done a controlled experiment to show plate tectonics is valid compared with Zeus moving the continents around. It’s simply unreasonable to expect such experiments to be run. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/490 "2012-07-10T19:00:03Z")
> [@NojNoj](#): > > IAnd again, you seem to use the word “science” in some utopian, idealized way that rarely exist. I can’t point you to any study that what I described is definitely the case, because no one’s going to fund that study, and it would be unethical to run any sort of experiment that would prove it. Similarly, no one’s run definite experiments to show speciation occurs naturally over time, and no one’s done a controlled experiment to show plate tectonics is valid compared with Zeus moving the continents around. It’s simply unreasonable to expect such experiments to be run. I will admit that no has looked at the possible effects of culture on plate tectonics. ---
**Author:** ![NojNoj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/2bfe46/32.png) [@NojNoj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NojNoj)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/491 "2012-07-10T19:00:28Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Political? I think maybe you gave something away there. Your problem in this debate is science, not politics. Dogmatically asserting something repetitively (and implying bad faith in those who disagree) doesn’t make it true. And it’s kind of creepy.. Here’s a pretty exhaustive summary of evidence of genetic influence on West and East African athletes; > **[The Story Behind the Amazing Success of Black Athletes, by Jon Entine](http://run-down.com/guests/je_black_athletes_p2.php)** > > Jon Entine explains away the myths of the socially taboo topic of black domination in sports. Part Two. One summary quote: “Scientists are definitive in their findings that athletes of West African ancestry are the most anaerobically efficient athletes, East African are the fittest aerobically, and whites fall in the middle.” This corresponds to results in international competitions. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/492 "2012-07-10T19:01:37Z")
> [@NojNoj](#): > > In an abstract, theoretical way, I agree with you. But it’s just that–an entirely abstract point (thus “sophistry”) that’s not relevant to the idea that sub-Saharan peoples tend to have a similar body type (whether or not the rest of their genome is the same isn’t relevant). > > This is actually a very prevalent and widely accepted theory among people who study biomechanics. I.e., sub-Saharan people, very early on, evolved long limbs and low volume torso’s as a way to manage heat. By chance, these features help with endurance running… (And that different groups within sub-Sahara evolved far away from each other doesn’t mean they didn’t keep that trait.) Maybe sub-Saharan people do have long limbs and low-volume torsos compared to others- but is there evidence for this? Did you provide a study or link that I missed? There are tons and tons of sub-Saharan populations, so this would have to be a large study, but the only difficulty would seem to be the volume of individuals that would have to be measured. > [@](#): > > And again, you seem to use the word “science” in some utopian, idealized way that rarely exist. I can’t point you to any study that what I described is definitely the case, because no one’s going to fund that study, and it would be unethical to run any sort of experiment that would prove it. Similarly, no one’s run definite experiments to show speciation occurs naturally over time, and no one’s done a controlled experiment to show plate tectonics is valid compared with Zeus moving the continents around. It’s simply unreasonable to expect such experiments to be run. It’s unreasonable to expect certain types to be run, perhaps, but not unreasonable to them to be run when it’s feasible. It’s feasible (even very likely) that there is an allele or group of alleles that is tied to running or athleticism, and it’s feasible that some populations have these alleles in a greater or lesser frequency then some other populations. But the thing is, the only evidence that this would be so would be _to find these alleles_, and actually _compare their frequency in different populations_. Think about it- fifty years ago olympic records and professional sports looked awfully different (and even more so 50 years before that)- why is _now_ the perfect time such that this “observational evidence” shows a real genetic relationship, but fifty years ago it didn’t (or were they right then- Jews had genetic advantages in basketball)? How do you know that in fifty more years, there won’t be completely different “observational evidence”? This is why, for a hypothesis such as yours about genetics, we actually need _genetic evidence_. ---
**Author:** ![NojNoj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/2bfe46/32.png) [@NojNoj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NojNoj)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/493 "2012-07-10T19:01:43Z")
> [@john mace](#): > > i will admit that no has looked at the possible effects of culture on plate tectonics. it’s cultural conditioning!!! ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/494 "2012-07-10T19:05:56Z")
> [@NojNoj](#): > > And it’s kind of creepy.. See my previous mod note. I don’t much care what you think of my argument, but try to make your arguments without calling other people or posts “nerdy” and “creepy.” That’s a better fit for the BBQ Pit than a debate forum. ---
**Author:** ![NojNoj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/2bfe46/32.png) [@NojNoj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NojNoj)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/495 "2012-07-10T19:09:37Z")
@Marley23 I don’t much care for your implications of bad faith… …especially without adding any substantive argument / information of your own. ---
**Author:** ![NojNoj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/2bfe46/32.png) [@NojNoj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NojNoj)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/496 "2012-07-10T19:48:49Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Think about it- fifty years ago olympic records and professional sports looked awfully different (and even more so 50 years before that)- why is _now_ the perfect time such that this “observational evidence” shows a real genetic relationship, but fifty years ago it didn’t (or were they right then- Jews had genetic advantages in basketball)? How do you know that in fifty more years, there won’t be completely different “observational evidence”? > > This is why, for a hypothesis such as yours about genetics, we actually need _genetic evidence_. Good points. I certainly didn’t mean to imply that cultural factors don’t play a role, but I think running is interesting because I think it minimizes cultural influences. But of course 50 years ago, you might not have seen any Kenyan runners on the international scene because they were effectively (colonial) slaves–puts a damper on your daily training. (But interestingly, you did see West-African-descended sprinters.) People are starting to do the more direct genetic experiments you propose (from the website I cited summarizing evidence): Geneticist and exercise physiologist Claude Bouchard at Laval University in Quebec City, has run numerous experiments comparing two populations, French-Canadian and West African students. Using long needles inserted into the thighs of test subjects, Bouchard’s team extracted tiny sections of fibers, which look to the naked eye like pieces of raw meat. They were chemically treated to reveal metabolic differences, put on a glass slide, and slipped under a high-power microscope, where they appeared as a collage of tiny red and white crocodile scales. The West Africans, by a ratio of approximately two to one, had more of the larger fast-twitch fibers. The researchers concluded that the force generating capacity of type-II muscle fibers at high velocity, the speed and tempo of movements, and the capacity of an individual to adapt to exercise training are all genetically influenced. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/497 "2012-07-10T20:08:11Z")
> [@NojNoj](#): > > I agree cultural factors could be at play in Africa-Americans beating out Brazilians, etc. (U.S. could just give more support to runners), but are the cultural factors affecting white and blacks in the U.S. so different that Whites would gravitate to middle distance events and blacks to shorter distances? I’m having trouble imagining how that would even play out on a typical high school / YMCA track team? There are plenty of cultural differences between whites and blacks. Beyond that, African-Americans are hardly the only community made up of West African descendants. Puerto Ricans don’t consider themselves black, but they are, with rare exceptions, like African-Americans, mixtures of European and African immigrants. However, while New York and New Jersey, which have huge populations of both groups, have produced many African-American football players, basketball players, and sprinters, they’ve produced few, if any Puerto Rican sprinters, point guards, and wide receivers, though they have produced plenty of Puerto Rican baseball players. If there really is some gene that makes people of West African descent great sprinters, than not only should the proponents be wondering where are the white running backs and 100 Meter dash champions, but where are the Puerto Rican ones. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/498 "2012-07-10T23:14:26Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > If there really is some gene that makes people of West African descent great sprinters, than not only should the proponents be wondering where are the white running backs and 100 Meter dash champions, but where are the Puerto Rican ones. Well, hell, I’m still waiting for the Cuban sprinters. We have two islands in the Caribbean, right close to each other, both with very substantial populations of people descended from African slaves. One island produces a bizarrely high proportion of elite sprinters. The other produces, so far as I know, none, but does produce high quality baseball players and boxers. Can this be explained with genetics? I don’t see how. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/499 "2012-07-10T23:17:40Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Well, hell, I’m still waiting for the Cuban sprinters. > > We have two islands in the Caribbean, right close to each other, both with very substantial populations of people descended from African slaves. One island produces a bizarrely high proportion of elite sprinters. The other produces, so far as I know, none, but does produce high quality baseball players and boxers. > > Can this be explained with genetics? I don’t see how. Yeah, if only there were some other human attribute that might explain why similar people in different places might be good at different things. Nah… that’s crazy talk. ---
**Author:** ![NojNoj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/2bfe46/32.png) [@NojNoj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NojNoj)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/500 "2012-07-10T23:19:12Z")
I don’t know specifically about Caribbeans, but sprinting, baseball, and boxing would all seem to benefit from higher percentage of fast-twitch muscles… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414.md?page=24) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414.md?page=26)