# Critique this: Why blacks run faster **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 6, 2012, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414 "2012-07-06T13:42:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 26
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/501 "2012-07-10T23:29:19Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Well, hell, I’m still waiting for the Cuban sprinters. > > We have two islands in the Caribbean, right close to each other, both with very substantial populations of people descended from African slaves. One island produces a bizarrely high proportion of elite sprinters. The other produces, so far as I know, none, but does produce high quality baseball players and boxers. > > Can this be explained with genetics? I don’t see how. The demographics of Cuba and Jamaica aren’t even close. Cuba: ``` Whites: 65.05% Mulattoes: 23.84% Blacks: 10.08% Asians: 1.02% ``` > **[Demographics of Cuba](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Cuba)** > > The demographic characteristics of Cuba are known through census which have been conducted and analyzed by different bureaus since 1774. The National Office of Statistics of and Information of Cuba (ONEI) is doing it since 1953. The most recent census was conducted in September 2012. The population of Cuba at the 2012 census was nearly 11.2 million. It has since declined to an estimated 9.74 million in 2024. > Although not a census, in July 2024, Juan Carlos Alfonso Fraga, deputy head of the ON... Jamaica: This topic is somewhat contentious with several respected sources giving different figures. In alphabetic order these are: ``` CIA Fact Book: black 91.2%, mixed 6.2%, other or unknown 2.6% (2001 census).[2] University of the West Indies: 76.3% African descent, 15.1% Afro-European, 3.4% East Indian and Afro-East Indian, 3.2% Caucasian, 1.2% Chinese and Afro-Chinese and 0.8% Other ``` > **[Demographics of Jamaica | Ethnic groups](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Jamaica#Ethnic_groups)** > > 76.3% African, 15.1% Afro-European, 3.4% Indian or Afro-Indian, 3.2% White, 1.2% Chinese or Afro-Chinese and 0.8% Others (2024 est.) > The group in Jamaica—composed largely of mixed-race and lighter-skinned —has played a crucial role in shaping the country’s political and economic structures since the colonial era. Their shared experiences, social networks, and cultural practices have distinguished them from the Black majority in meaningful ways. > During slavery, mixed-race Jamaicans—often the off... Jamaica had a much, much higher ratio of slaves to white settlers than any of the other islands or colonies in the area. ---
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/502 "2012-07-10T23:51:30Z")
> [@treis](#): > > This topic is somewhat contentious with several respected sources giving different figures. In alphabetic order these are: > > ``` > CIA Fact Book: black 91.2%, mixed 6.2%, other or unknown 2.6% (2001 census).[2] > University of the West Indies: 76.3% African descent, 15.1% Afro-European, 3.4% East Indian and Afro-East Indian, 3.2% Caucasian, 1.2% Chinese and Afro-Chinese and 0.8% Other > > ``` > > [Demographics of Jamaica - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Jamaica#Ethnic_groups) I just can’t imagine how you can call that without DNA testing a sample size. Take the obv. example of Michael Johnson - slave descendent, he assumed as much but had no idea 10% of his ancestry was Anglo-Saxon until being DNA tested for this programme. > [@treis](#): > > Jamaica had a much, much higher ratio of slaves to white settlers than any of the other islands or colonies in the area. A cite would be pretty interesting … ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/503 "2012-07-11T00:14:12Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Well, hell, I’m still waiting for the Cuban sprinters. > > We have two islands in the Caribbean, right close to each other, both with very substantial populations of people descended from African slaves. One island produces a bizarrely high proportion of elite sprinters. The other produces, so far as I know, none, but does produce high quality baseball players and boxers. > > Can this be explained with genetics? I don’t see how. Already mentioned the Cuban sprinters and their absence in post 484. Noj handwaved it away. ---
**Author:** ![NojNoj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/2bfe46/32.png) [@NojNoj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NojNoj)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/504 "2012-07-11T00:22:31Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Already mentioned the Cuban sprinters and their absence in post 484. Noj handwaved it away. I thought I actually was agreeing with you. Not to add another political dimension to this, but athletes in Cuba aren’t free (to choose what sports they participate in, at the very least). Kind of taints them as a population sample. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/505 "2012-07-11T00:23:58Z")
> [@treis](#): > > The demographics of Cuba and Jamaica aren’t even close. > > Cuba: > > ``` > Whites: 65.05% > Mulattoes: 23.84% > Blacks: 10.08% > Asians: 1.02% > > ``` > > [Demographics of Cuba - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Cuba) > > Jamaica: > > This topic is somewhat contentious with several respected sources giving different figures. In alphabetic order these are: > > ``` > CIA Fact Book: black 91.2%, mixed 6.2%, other or unknown 2.6% (2001 census).[2] > University of the West Indies: 76.3% African descent, 15.1% Afro-European, 3.4% East Indian and Afro-East Indian, 3.2% Caucasian, 1.2% Chinese and Afro-Chinese and 0.8% Other > > ``` > > [Demographics of Jamaica - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Jamaica#Ethnic_groups) > > Jamaica had a much, much higher ratio of slaves to white settlers than any of the other islands or colonies in the area. I have to admit that I laughed when the guy who got angry at me for asking him how he defined black and rather huffily said his standard was if “they look black to me” is now claiming that 65% of all Cubans are “white”. Wikipedia articles are reliable if you’re all out of toilet paper and you need to wipe your ass, but as a rule they’re not reliable and your cite is a good example. Talk to anyone who’s visited there, watch a documentary on it, or stop by your library and pick up a good book on it and you’ll find that while the people in charge of Cuba may be “white” the majority of the population would certainly pass your “they look black to me” test. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/506 "2012-07-11T00:36:22Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I have to admit that I laughed when the guy who got angry at me for asking him how he defined black and rather huffily said his standard was if “they look black to me” is now claiming that 65% of all Cubans are “white”. > > Wikipedia articles are reliable if you’re all out of toilet paper and you need to wipe your ass, but as a rule they’re not reliable and your cite is a good example. Talk to anyone who’s visited there, watch a documentary on it, or stop by your library and pick up a good book on it and you’ll find that while the people in charge of Cuba may be “white” the majority of the population would certainly pass your “they look black to me” test. I know you like to dump on wikipedia, but it’s usually quite good for this type of information. It’s as good as any other encyclopedia, if not better. The problem with the Cuban statistics isn’t wikipedia-- it’s Cuba. So, yeah, if all those people lived in the US, many of the “whites” would be black. But that’s not wikipedia’s fault. You’d have a similar problem with Brazil, but not because it’s a closed society-- because the definitions of race they use is different than in the US. ---
**Author:** ![holmes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e95f7d/32.png) [@holmes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/holmes)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/507 "2012-07-11T00:49:04Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I…The problem with the Cuban statistics isn’t wikipedia-- it’s Cuba. So, yeah, if all those people lived in the US, many of the “whites” would be black. But that’s not wikipedia’s fault. You’d have a similar problem with Brazil, but not because it’s a closed society-- because the definitions of race they use is different than in the US. I think that also illustrates the problem with this US centric race thing. People from or familiar with other countries, read and look at what we consider ‘black’ or ‘white’ and wonder what the hell we’re talking about and why all fuss? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/508 "2012-07-11T00:56:46Z")
> [@holmes](#): > > I think that also illustrates the problem with this US centric race thing. People from or familiar with other countries, read and look at what we consider ‘black’ or ‘white’ and wonder what the hell we’re talking about and why all fuss? Or why not more fuss? 🙂 But, yeah. People in the US tend to take a very parochial view, assuming everyone else in the world thinks about race the way we do. That simply is not the case, and there is a whole world south of the border where the rules are entirely different. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/509 "2012-07-11T01:08:02Z")
> [@holmes](#): > > I think that also illustrates the problem with this US centric race thing. People from or familiar with other countries, read and look at what we consider ‘black’ or ‘white’ and wonder what the hell we’re talking about and why all fuss? Agreed. That’s especially true in Latin America. Mariano Rivera, David Ortiz, and Manny Ramirez all “look black” to Americans but they certainly don’t consider themselves black. That’s why I asked Treis for his definition of black, to which he explained his test was someone who “looked black to me” though he apparantly exempts Cuba from the test. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/510 "2012-07-11T01:10:02Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Agreed. That’s especially true in Latin America. > > Mariano Rivera, David Ortiz, and Manny Ramirez all “look black” to Americans but they certainly don’t consider themselves black. > > That’s why I asked Treis for his definition of black, to which he explained his test was someone who “looked black to me” though he apparantly exempts Cuba from the test. Cuba looks more green, at least on Google satellite view. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/511 "2012-07-11T01:44:18Z")
Are you guys shitting me? Jamaica was unique in its tiny ratio of whites to slaves: > [@](#): > > Although Jamaica is only 146 miles long and no more than 50 miles wide, by 1800 there were 300,000 slaves, 10,000 Scots and a similar number of English. The Scots and English were mainly men and they administered the island and the enslaved black population In 1800 20,000 whites vs 300,000 slaves. If you actually read the cite I gave for Cuban’s demographics, you can see that it gives numbers of Spanish immigrants vs. slaves, and the results of genetic testing. > [@John Mace](#): > > I know you like to dump on wikipedia, but it’s usually quite good for this type of information. It’s as good as any other encyclopedia, if not better. The problem with the Cuban statistics isn’t wikipedia-- it’s Cuba. So, yeah, if all those people lived in the US, many of the “whites” would be black. But that’s not wikipedia’s fault. You’d have a similar problem with Brazil, but not because it’s a closed society-- because the definitions of race they use is different than in the US. This is so ridiculous. We have a ton of Cubans in American, and they are considered white or Hispanic, not black. You’re calling me anti-science when you flat just make up shit? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/512 "2012-07-11T01:54:53Z")
> [@treis](#): > > This is so ridiculous. We have a ton of Cubans in American, and they are considered white or Hispanic, not black. > > You’re calling me anti-science when you flat just make up shit? Ok, for starters Cuban-Americans aren’t remotely representative of Cuba. They mostly came from the upper class and middle-class who fled the revolution. Similarly, IIRC around 40-50% of all Vietnamese-Americans are Catholic even though Catholics make up a tiny percentage of Vietnam and IIRC around 30-40% of all Iranian-Americans are Jewish even though only about 1% of all Iranians are Jewish. Also, I’d recommend using better sources than Wikipedia articles if you’re going to accuse someone of lying. ---
**Author:** ![NojNoj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/2bfe46/32.png) [@NojNoj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NojNoj)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/513 "2012-07-11T01:58:13Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > around 30-40% of all Iranian-Americans are Jewish even though only about 1% of all Iranians are Jewish. > . Really? Are they good at basketball? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/514 "2012-07-11T02:04:28Z")
> [@NojNoj](#): > > Really? Are they good at basketball? Persians would never do anything so plebeian. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/515 "2012-07-11T02:13:32Z")
> [@treis](#): > > This is so ridiculous. We have a ton of Cubans in American, and they are considered white or Hispanic, not black. And yet you claimed that Cuba was 15% black. Why aren’t at least 15% of the Cuban-Americans black? > [@](#): > > You’re calling me anti-science when you flat just make up shit? I didn’t call you anti-sceince. It is a fact that the definition of “black” is significantly different in Latin America than it is the US, and that many people who are not black there would be black here. [Enjoy.](http://www.pbs.org/wnet/black-in-latin-america/) [And more:](http://www.miamiherald.com/multimedia/news/afrolatin/part4/index.html) > [@](#): > > Cuba’s official statistics offer little help on the race issue. The 2002 census, which asked Cubans whether they were white, black or mestizo/mulatto, showed 11 percent of the island’s 11.2 million people described themselves as black. The real figure is more like 62 percent, according to the Institute for Cuban and Cuban-American Studies at the University of Miami. > > \ > > The disparity between the census’ 11 percent and UM’s 62 percent also reflects the complicated racial categories in a country where if you look white you are considered white, no matter the genes. > > “You know, there are seven different types of blacks in Cuba,” said Denny, who now works as a waiter but dreams of a hip-hop career. From darkest to lightest, they are: negro azul, prieto, moreno, mulato, trigueño, jabao and blanconaso. In the US, we have black and white, with a small, but growing, minority of people who self-identify as bi-racial or multi-racial. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/516 "2012-07-11T02:37:14Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > And yet you claimed that Cuba was 15% black. Why aren’t at least 15% of the Cuban-Americans black? Who says they aren’t? Here’s one off the top of my head: [Orlando Hernández - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orlando_Hern%C3%A1ndez) I didn’t call you anti-sceince. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > It is a fact that the definition of “black” is significantly different in Latin America than it is the US, and that many people who are not black there would be black here. > > [Enjoy.](http://www.pbs.org/wnet/black-in-latin-america/) > > [And more:](http://www.miamiherald.com/multimedia/news/afrolatin/part4/index.html) > > In the US, we have black and white, with a small, but growing, minority of people who self-identify as bi-racial or multi-racial. Um, and why are we taking a throw away quote from an article without any methodology over a cite with 240 years of ethnic history based on the census, a listing origin of immigration for Cuba, and genetic ancestry based on genetics. Oooohhh right, because all of that says you’re wrong and this random cite you found says you’re right. Gee, if only someone had warned us against that: > [@](#): > > Let me add that anyone trained in science knows the danger of trying to find a specific result. Why oh why can’t we listen to him. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/517 "2012-07-11T02:46:19Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Who says they aren’t? You did. > [@](#): > > Um, and why are we taking a throw away quote from an article without any methodology over a cite with 240 years of ethnic history based on the census, a listing origin of immigration for Cuba, and genetic ancestry based on genetics. For the simple reason that “black” means something different in the US than it does in Cuba. Do you deny that? ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/518 "2012-07-11T02:51:06Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > You did. No, I didn’t. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > For the simple reason that “black” means something different in the US than it does in Cuba. Do you deny that? I’m not playing this game where I post a cite proving my point by many different methods simply to have it ignored. It’s clear what result you are looking for here and how little interest you have in any facts that contradict your preconceived ideas. ---
**Author:** ![NojNoj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/2bfe46/32.png) [@NojNoj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NojNoj)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/519 "2012-07-11T02:54:44Z")
Interlude Observation: Early on in this thread someone noted that there’s an irrational level of hostility to what should be accepted as straightforward evolutionary and genetic arguments. In that vein, I can’t help but notice that no one who’s been arguing against any significant genetic contribution has made any comment on links to solid science I’ve posted on this subject. So here’s another: “Why are Jamaicans so good at sprinting” ([Slate.com](http://Slate.com)): [Why are Jamaicans so good at sprinting?](http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2008/08/jamaican_me_speedy.html) And again, from a running site: [The Story Behind the Amazing Success of Black Athletes, by Jon Entine](http://run-down.com/guests/je_black_athletes_p2.php) Most of the studies cited are published / peer reviewed. Note also how the authors treat this mostly as a “no-big-deal,” interesting aspect of human experience sort of story. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/520 "2012-07-11T02:59:37Z")
> [@treis](#): > > No, I didn’t. You said: > [@](#): > > We have a ton of Cubans in American, and they are considered white or Hispanic, not black. So yes, you did. > [@](#): > > I’m not playing this game where I post a cite proving my point by many different methods simply to have it ignored. It’s clear what result you are looking for here and how little interest you have in any facts that contradict your preconceived ideas. Yeah, we’re looking for the scientific result, not the folk-science version. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414.md?page=25) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414.md?page=27)