# Critique this: Why blacks run faster **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 6, 2012, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414 "2012-07-06T13:42:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 27
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/521 "2012-07-11T03:01:06Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > You said: > So yes, you did. No, I didn’t. Read what that statement was a response to. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/522 "2012-07-11T03:05:57Z")
> [@treis](#): > > No, I didn’t. Read what that statement was a response to. Dude, you said what you said. The post you were responding to did nothing to temper your statement. You said Cuban Americans were white or Hispanic, not black. If you want to back-peddle on that, I can understand. We all make mistakes in our posts from time to time. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/523 "2012-07-11T03:11:48Z")
Treis, Earlier you claimed that your standard for determining who was “black” was by asking if the average American looking at someone would consider that person black. Most people living in Cuba would, to the average American, “look black”, to use your terminology. Are you now withdrawing your test of who is black and who isn’t or for some reason do you think Cubans should be held to much higher standards than Americans to determine who is “black” and who isn’t? Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/524 "2012-07-11T03:22:51Z")
Anybody saying that Cubans are, on average, about as African as Jamaicans might as well give up on this thread now…you’re not convincing anyone, except convincing them of your own pointless bias. Really? Did that argument even get MADE? Who on Goddamn earth would even consider that an ARGUMENT? It’s really just a way of preaching to the choir, while telling the other side to go to hell. IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/525 "2012-07-11T03:23:44Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Dude, you said what you said. The post you were responding to did nothing to temper your statement. You said Cuban Americans were white or Hispanic, not black. If you want to back-peddle on that, I can understand. We all make mistakes in our posts from time to time. > [@John Mace](#): > > it’s Cuba. So, yeah, if all those people lived in the US, many of the “whites” would be black. > [@treis](#): > > We have a ton of Cubans in American, and they are considered white or Hispanic, not black. > [@Ibn Warraq](#): > > Most people living in Cuba would, to the average American, “look black”, to use your terminology. > > Are you now withdrawing your test of who is black and who isn’t or for some reason do you think Cubans should be held to much higher standards than Americans to determine who is “black” and who isn’t? I’m not interested in engaging with people who ignore the arguments and facts I post. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/526 "2012-07-11T03:26:48Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > Anybody saying that Cubans are, on average, about as African as Jamaicans might as well give up.. Well, since that would be “no one”, I think we’re all safe. > [@treis](#): > > I’m not interested in engaging with people who ignore the arguments and facts I post. If you post some facts, I promise not to ignore them. Do you wish to start doing that now? ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/527 "2012-07-11T03:38:13Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > If you post some facts, I promise not to ignore them. Do you wish to start doing that now? You ignored the ones I posted not two hours ago. I don’t see the need to repeat myself. ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/528 "2012-07-11T04:05:15Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Well, since that would be “no one”, I think we’re all safe. John, here’s a direct quote from Ibn Warraq, from the previous page: “Dominicans and Cubans are also overwhelming of West African descent…” Well? OK, I have to admit, I’m enjoying this moment. You are clearly wrong, by words posted in this very thread. And yes, you have lost all credibility with me in this discussion. Clearly you don’t think even going to the trouble of reading the previous page so you can ascertain whether I’m right or not is worth your time. That makes discussing this with you not worth _ **my** _ time. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/529 "2012-07-11T04:25:46Z")
> [@treis](#): > > I’m not interested in engaging with people who ignore the arguments and facts I post. What arguments of your’s have I “ignored”? You at one point proclaimed that you considered black anyone who “looked black” to the average American. Well, to the average American, most Cubans, though not Cuban-Americans, or, to use your term “Cubans in America” most certainly “look black”. Have you reconsidered your definition of what is a “black person” and what is a “white person” or would you agree that most Cubans and African-Americans are “black”? Thanks ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/530 "2012-07-11T04:28:26Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > John, here’s a direct quote from Ibn Warraq, from the previous page: > > “Dominicans and Cubans are also overwhelming of West African descent…”. Er… yes, I made a factually accurate statement that no serious person would deny. Are you disputing it? If so, please provide evidence that most Dominicans and Cubans aren’t of West African descent. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/531 "2012-07-11T04:55:11Z")
> **[BBC NEWS | Americas | BBC delves into Brazilians' roots](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6284806.stm)** > > Nine famous Brazilians undergo DNA tests organised by BBC Brasil to trace their origin - with surprising results for all. > [@](#): > > [Neguinho da Beija-Flor’s stage-name indicates his skin colour; in Portuguese, Neguinho means Little Black.](http://telemagia.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/neguinho_da_beija_flor1.jpg) > Montage - Top: Neguinho da Beija Flor, Sandra de Sa, Djavan; Middle: Obina, Milton Nascimento, Ildi Silva; Bottom: Frei David, Seu Jorge, Daiane dos Santos > The BBC project analysed the DNA of nine famous Brazilians > > In this year’s Rio Carnival competition, he sang a song celebrating Brazil’s African roots in a performance that won his samba school the title. > > But having learned to be proud of his African ancestry, he was shocked to find out that about **67% of his genes are European and only 31% African** , according to an estimate based on an analysis of his DNA. > > “People will think I’m joking if I tell them this”, said the singer, who knew very little about his African ancestors but nothing at all about his European ones. > > Neguinho da Beija-Flor was among nine celebrities who were tested for a project, called Afro-Brazilian Roots, by the Brazilian Service of the BBC. [http://essays.backintyme.com/item/11](http://essays.backintyme.com/item/11) This quote refers to Puerto Rico, but you have essentially the same situation in Cuba, Brazil, and the DR with regard to mixture between people of African ancestry and people of European ancestry. In these countries, mixing has been so extensive and gone on for so long, that the genetics have decoupled from physical appearance. So many people who look like Africans actually have a majority of European ancestry, and people who look European can have substantial amounts (~ 25%) African ancestry. Basically, the ancestry of these countries is roughly evenly split between African and European ancestry. What this looks like after centuries of mixing is a white minority, a black minority, and a majority of brown/beige. The DNA analysis still shows 40% to 60% African ancestry, depending on the country in question, but not nearly as many people who “look black”. > [@](#): > > Appearance is not the Same Thing as Ancestry > > virtually every native-born Puerto Rican on the island today has equal numbers of African and European ancestors.19 This means that those few Puerto Ricans who are of predominantly European appearance as well as those who are of predominantly African appearance descend from the same population of ancestors. The figure above depicts a computer simulation of this result.20 This point bears repeating. Those few Puerto Ricans of European appearance whose families have been on the island since colonial times have equal numbers of African and European ancestors, as do those Puerto Ricans of strongly African appearance. **In short, skin tone is so ephemeral and so sensitive to a few genes, that it is nearly useless as an indicator of either Afro-European ancestry or Afro-European genetic admixture** (which are themselves different things). [bolding mine] A small, but non trivial subset of black Americans have no African ancestry: > [@](#): > > As another example of this point, a recent admixture study conducted in Columbia, South Carolina, found that about five percent of Black Americans have no detectable African genetic admixture at all.21 Their family oral histories accurately trace their descent partly from African slaves. But over the course of many generations, even the negligible intermarriage rate between Whites and Blacks gradually eliminated the genetic markers of African origin from those few families by random chance. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/532 "2012-07-11T05:19:02Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > John, here’s a direct quote from Ibn Warraq, from the previous page: > > “Dominicans and Cubans are also overwhelming of West African descent…” > > Well? That’s not a statement that the populations are the same. It’s just an observation that there is a large African input into the gene pools of those peoples. The genes don’t disappear through interbreeding. I’m reminded of a poser we had here not long ago who claimed that blue eyes were going to disappear from the US because of the influx of so many people without blue-eyed genes. No. The genes are still there in equal numbers, and they will assert themselves regardless. If Africans have a sprinting gene, it’s going to stay in the population even if non-Africans enter that population. The same point was made about Brazil earlier. Many more Africans ended up in Brazil than ended up in Jamaica. Brazil may not have proportionately as many blacks as Jamaica does, but it still had more African genes floating around int he populace. > [@John Mace](#): > > If you post some facts, I promise not to ignore them. Do you wish to start doing that now? **treis** : That post was unnecessarily snarky, and I apologize. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/533 "2012-07-11T06:39:07Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > Out of curiosity, if you’re watching a documentary on the history of the 100m dash in the Olympics with your 6-year-old kid, and he notices that for the past, say 30 years, the 100m final has consisted only of blacks, and your 6-year-old asks “Dad, why aren’t there ever any whites in this event?” what do you say? Do you explain that there is no scientifically accepted answer, and that it’s mostly cultural? That would be the correct answer, from a scientific point of view. ---
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/534 "2012-07-11T06:57:04Z")
> [@NojNoj](#): > > Interlude Observation: > > Early on in this thread someone noted that there’s an irrational level of hostility to what should be accepted as straightforward evolutionary and genetic arguments. In that vein, I can’t help but notice that no one who’s been arguing against any significant genetic contribution has made any comment on links to solid science I’ve posted on this subject. > > So here’s another: “Why are Jamaicans so good at sprinting” ([Slate.com](http://Slate.com)): > [Why are Jamaicans so good at sprinting?](http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2008/08/jamaican_me_speedy.html) > > And again, from a running site: [The Story Behind the Amazing Success of Black Athletes, by Jon Entine](http://run-down.com/guests/je_black_athletes_p2.php) > > Most of the studies cited are published / peer reviewed. Note also how the authors treat this mostly as a “no-big-deal,” interesting aspect of human experience sort of story. Hey, I got redirected to Stormfront by that great contributor of scientific data John Mace. At least this board appears to have evolved sufficiently now to debate this topic with maturity. This is most definitely a good thing. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/535 "2012-07-11T12:56:16Z")
The other thing that keeps getting lost in these comparisons of different New World countries, is that Jamaica is tiny. It has less than 3M people. Cuba, with about 4x that number still has roughly the same number of blacks if we use the conservative figures from their census. And we know that number undercounts blacks because of the different definitions used for that term in Cuba. And I already noted that Brazil has almost 100x as many people as Jamaica does. Not to mention that there are millions of people in West Africa who are, not surprisingly, West African. Jamaica isn’t some special place with some unique cache of West African sprinting genes. ---
**Author:** ![NojNoj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/2bfe46/32.png) [@NojNoj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NojNoj)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/536 "2012-07-11T14:06:10Z")
> [@PrettyVacant](#): > > At least this board appears to have evolved sufficiently now to debate this topic with maturity. . Wish I could share your optimism, but mostly see rote repetition of “received ideas” with little evidence that people are actually open to new or opposing views. Here’s summary statement from 2003 Journal Article on genetics and athletics: \*There is increasing evidence for strong genetic influences on athletic performance and for an evolutionary “trade-off” between performance traits for speed and endurance activities. \* ([ACTN3 Genotype Is Associated with Human Elite Athletic Performance - PMC](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1180686/)) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/537 "2012-07-11T15:37:39Z")
> [@NojNoj](#): > > Wish I could share your optimism, but mostly see rote repetition of “received ideas” with little evidence that people are actually open to new or opposing views. > > Here’s summary statement from 2003 Journal Article on genetics and athletics: > > \*There is increasing evidence for strong genetic influences on athletic performance and for an evolutionary “trade-off” between performance traits for speed and endurance activities. > \* > ([ACTN3 Genotype Is Associated with Human Elite Athletic Performance - PMC](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1180686/)) I can’t imagine that anyone was surprised by those results. There are different adaptations for speed and endurance. It would be shocking if that weren’t so. And your cite is a study done on white Americans. Only white Americans. Just so it’s clear what you’re citing. ---
**Author:** ![NojNoj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/2bfe46/32.png) [@NojNoj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NojNoj)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/538 "2012-07-11T15:44:25Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I can’t imagine that anyone was surprised by those results. … Just so it’s clear what you’re citing. Well, I think there are plenty of people who’ve posted on this thread who should be (if they believe what they’ve been posting). That paper just shows some clear genetic drivers of sprinting and endurance running performance. If you look at the slate article , it discusses the specific beneficial adaptations for sprinting among Jamacain population (and other cited overview article references a bunch of other studies). ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/539 "2012-07-11T15:54:24Z")
> [@NojNoj](#): > > Well, I think there are plenty of people who’ve posted on this thread who should be (if they believe what they’ve been posting). Nobody is suggesting that genetics have nothing or even very little to do with being good at sprinting. What many of us are suggesting is that there are lots of other factors involved. Were genetics involved in Carl Lewis being so successful? The answer is pretty obviously “duh”. However, had Carl Lewis been switched at birth with a boy from Rio, Havana, Santo Domingo, or Dakar he probably would not have grown up to become one of the most successful Olympic sprinters of all time. Also, had he grown up in any of those places, he wouldn’t have been considered black. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/540 "2012-07-11T15:59:38Z")
> [@NojNoj](#): > > Well, I think there are plenty of people who’ve posted on this thread who should be (if they believe what they’ve been posting). > > That paper just shows some clear genetic drivers of sprinting and endurance running performance. If you look at the slate article , it discusses the specific beneficial adaptations for sprinting among Jamacain population (and other cited overview article references a bunch of other studies). You can dismiss the racialist psuedo-science that some are peddling in this thread and still understand that genetics affects athletic performance. No one is going to deny that. Most of us are even saying that it is possible for certain populations to be genetically predisposed to being better at certain physical activities. We just don’t know enough about the genetics to make the kind of sweeping announcements that some have made, and we don’t need to resort to ridiculous hypothesis about Plantation Eugenics, either. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414.md?page=26) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414.md?page=28)