# Critique this: Why blacks run faster **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 6, 2012, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414 "2012-07-06T13:42:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/101 "2012-07-07T01:12:30Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > . > > I’ll note that the list Pretty Vacent is waving around does not have a single Brazilian, unless I missed one, even though Brazil has far and away the most slave descendants of any country on Earth. > . This doesn’t really matters. It might be for instance that Brazilians don’t invest much in sports and in the training of their Olympic teams, resulting in few finalists in any sport. Similarly, Jamaica is a poor example in favor of a genetic hedge because Jamaicans are notoriously almost as crazy about racing as Brazilians are about soccer, so it’s no surprise that this country “produces” an abnormaly high number of world-level runners. What would help would be to know if, _within Brazil_, people with a lot of Black ancestry are overrepresented amongst short distance race champions. Though given the high level of racial mixing in Brazil, I’m not sure it would be easy to determine. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/102 "2012-07-07T01:33:45Z")
> [@Lord\_Mondegreen](#): > > Germans and Brazilians care enormously about football. But not gridiron. 😉 True. Pele had fantastic soccer/football genes, but lacked the sprinter genes of Jesse Owens. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/103 "2012-07-07T01:49:58Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > So your suggestion is that since there are no Russians, Germans, or Brazilians in “the speed positions in the NFL” that means that they lack the genes to do so? > > That seems a little bizzare. > > Isn’t a better explanation that Americans play and care about football vastly more so than do Russians, Germans, and Brazilians? But this ignores the racial breakdown within the sport. Here’s an article someone did breaking down all of the starting lineups [http://blogs.citypages.com/blotter/2008/12/nfl\_a\_study\_in.php](http://blogs.citypages.com/blotter/2008/12/nfl_a_study_in.php). It’s a couple years old, but the breakdown is still similar. A few key positions: Wide Receiver (64 starters) 59- Black (92 percent) 3- White (5 percent) 1- Other (2 percent) Running Back (32 starters) 32- Black (100 percent) Defensive Back (128 starters) 123- Black (96 percent) 4- White (3 percent) 1- Other (1 percent) Every position where the important physical attribute is speed and agility is dominated by blacks. The one position whites are in the majority is the offensive line, coincidentally where bulk and size are more important than speed or agility. Here is a breakdown of Somoan players in the NFL: [http://www.ipacific.com/forum/index.php?topic=490.0](http://www.ipacific.com/forum/index.php?topic=490.0) If you note, there are no WRs, CBs, or RBs. You can argue about culture a lot, and yes that is certainly part of it, but it’s ridiculous to ignore genes as a contributing factor. ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/104 "2012-07-07T01:59:58Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Really? The physical attributes that make you a good baseball player also make you a good basketball player? Michael Jordan batted around .202 in his stint in AA minor league baseball. Athletic ability is athletic ability. Period. Jordan would probably have been a better hitter if he didn’t have one of the largest strike zones in the league. Also, he hadn’t really played a lot of baseball, relative to basketball. ALSO, height is not NEARLY as big an advantage in baseball as in basketball. So yeah, even with a relative lack of practice and a huge strike zone, Jordan managed to be a fairly decent baseball player. But, to be fair, if you’re, say, 6’3" or 6’4", for instance, you could, all other things being equal, be fairly good at either sport. And there are some good baseball players who are very tall, just not that many. Randy Johnson comes to mind. ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/105 "2012-07-07T02:02:09Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Here is a breakdown of Somoan players in the NFL: [http://www.ipacific.com/forum/index.php?topic=490.0](http://www.ipacific.com/forum/index.php?topic=490.0) > > If you note, there are no WRs, CBs, or RBs. Yeah, the Samoans aren’t exactly lithe little ballerinas. They just won’t listen, though. You throw facts, they throw 'tude and personal attacks. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/106 "2012-07-07T02:09:17Z")
> [@treis](#): > > But this ignores the racial breakdown within the sport. Here’s an article someone did breaking down all of the starting lineups [http://blogs.citypages.com/blotter/2008/12/nfl\_a\_study\_in.php](http://blogs.citypages.com/blotter/2008/12/nfl_a_study_in.php). It’s a couple years old, but the breakdown is still similar. A few key positions: > > Wide Receiver (64 starters) > > 59- Black (92 percent) > 3- White (5 percent) > 1- Other (2 percent) > > Running Back (32 starters) > > 32- Black (100 percent) > > Defensive Back (128 starters) > > 123- Black (96 percent) > 4- White (3 percent) > 1- Other (1 percent) > > Every position where the important physical attribute is speed and agility is dominated by blacks. The one position whites are in the majority is the offensive line, coincidentally where bulk and size are more important than speed or agility. > > Here is a breakdown of Somoan players in the NFL: [http://www.ipacific.com/forum/index.php?topic=490.0](http://www.ipacific.com/forum/index.php?topic=490.0) > > If you note, there are no WRs, CBs, or RBs. > > You can argue about culture a lot, and yes that is certainly part of it, but it’s ridiculous to ignore genes as a contributing factor. Please define “white” and “black” and explain what definitions this study used. ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/107 "2012-07-07T02:11:12Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Sorry. That does not scan. > > You are claiming that blacks are “leaving” a sport with 1200 openings in the major leagues and innumerable places available in a whole series of minor leagues for a sport that has only 360 openings (390 next season) at the major league level, no true minor league, and a height requirement to get in? That would indicate that a minimum of 840 guys are just going home as soon as they fail to get picked by an MLB team to say nothing of all the openings in the minors. > > You might have part of an argument with your cheap-and-easy basketball courts claim, (athough you have to ignore the large number of black kids who have been growing up in the suburbs in the last 30+ years to make it and the fact that the vast majority of urban high schools have baseball fields dating to the days when that was the national sport), but the notion that black athletes are switching from baseball to basketball simply fails. How many black people do you even KNOW? Do you really think anyone is explaining this math to them? No. They like the status that goes with being an NBA player, and that’s all they give a shit about, when it comes to choosing a sport. NFL is second best for them. Baseball is barely on the map, unless they are waaay too short for basketball, too slow to play a speed-based football position, and too small to play a brute-force-based football position. Kirby Puckett comes to mind. He’s an excellent example of an _incredibly_ talented black baseball player whose physical attributes don’t put him squarely in any of the right categories for basketball or football. He was only 5’8", and stocky, but not big enough for an offensive lineman. Do you even know that one of the biggest positive adjectives in urban black lingo is “baller”? Here’s a note–“baller” refers to basketball, not baseball. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/108 "2012-07-07T02:13:14Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > Michael Jordan batted around .202 in his stint in AA minor league baseball. > > Athletic ability is athletic ability. Period. Jordan would probably have been a better hitter if he didn’t have one of the largest strike zones in the league. Also, he hadn’t really played a lot of baseball, relative to basketball. ALSO, height is not NEARLY as big an advantage in baseball as in basketball. > > So yeah, even with a relative lack of practice and a huge strike zone, Jordan managed to be a fairly decent baseball player. > > But, to be fair, if you’re, say, 6’3" or 6’4", for instance, you could, all other things being equal, be fairly good at either sport. > > And there are some good baseball players who are very tall, just not that many. Randy Johnson comes to mind. If Ted Williams and Babe Ruth had played as little baseball as Jordan, they’d have hit like him. Conversely, perhaps if Jordan had concentrated on baseball to the exclusion of basketball the way Dave Winfield, who was the same height did, perhaps like Winfield, he’d be in the Baseball Hall of Fame. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/109 "2012-07-07T02:23:50Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Please define “white” and “black” and explain what definitions this study used. > [@](#): > > I asked Spicer how he did this, and he replied: “I can’t say that I went into the genealogy of each player. As a veteran football writer, I’m familiar with a wealth of the starters — any guy that I was uncertain about, I researched, whether that be via images or Web-based content. There were those, however, that required some additional digging and, plying the tenets of our trade, I aimed to locate the most accurate information I could.” You haven’t needed a definition of white or black before, so I don’t understand why you want one now. ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/110 "2012-07-07T02:36:55Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > If Ted Williams and Babe Ruth had played as little baseball as Jordan, they’d have hit like him. Yes, that was my point. It sounds like we’re in agreement. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/111 "2012-07-07T02:39:56Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > Michael Jordan batted around .202 in his stint in AA minor league baseball. > > Athletic ability is athletic ability. Period. Jordan would probably have been a better hitter if he didn’t have one of the largest strike zones in the league. Also, he hadn’t really played a lot of baseball, relative to basketball. ALSO, height is not NEARLY as big an advantage in baseball as in basketball. > > So yeah, even with a relative lack of practice and a huge strike zone, Jordan managed to be a fairly decent baseball player. > > But, to be fair, if you’re, say, 6’3" or 6’4", for instance, you could, all other things being equal, be fairly good at either sport. > > And there are some good baseball players who are very tall, just not that many. Randy Johnson comes to mind. What? “Athletic ability is athletic ability?” Is it your contention that what makes you a good gymnast makes you a good basketball player? That what makes you a good golfer makes you a good football player? That what makes you a good hockey player makes you a good gymnast? There are, of course, a few rare individuals who can excel at the pro level of a few sports. But that is the exception, not the rule. And let’s be clear. The contention was that baseball players were leaving that sport for basketball. What is the evidence for that? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/112 "2012-07-07T02:46:11Z")
> [@treis](#): > > You haven’t needed a definition of white or black before, so I don’t understand why you want one now. Huh? You’re making scientific claims so please give a biological/scientific definition of what is a “black” person and what is a “white” person. If what you were saying was remotely true as opposed to pseudo-scientific bullshit you should be able to come up with some definitions. ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/113 "2012-07-07T02:47:21Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > What? “Athletic ability is athletic ability?” Is it your contention that what makes you a good gymnast makes you a good basketball player? That what makes you a good golfer makes you a good football player? That what makes you a good hockey player makes you a good gymnast? > > There are, of course, a few rare individuals who can excel at the pro level of a few sports. But that is the exception, not the rule. > > And let’s be clear. The contention was that baseball players were leaving that sport for basketball. What is the evidence for that? Yes, John, I AM saying that “athletic ability is athletic ability”. Being coordinated physically is being coordinated physically. Period. Some people might have very specific skills _in addition_ to pure athletic ability, like pitchers/quarterbacks, but yes, other than those specific types of skills, it’s simple coordination/kinaesthetic ability/etc.. It’s all one thing. How is that even controversial? What world did you grow up in? Did you not play sports as a kid? Do you not know very many highly-talented athletes? In addition, I pointed out that “baller” is a universal positive adjective in urban black youth culture. If something’s really good/cool/etc., then it might be called “baller”. That’s from basketball, not football, and DEFINITELY not baseball. In addition, I ALSO pointed out that urban black youth have MUCH easier access to basketball courts than to baseball fields. And guess what? Blacks have been becoming more urbanized for the last 40+ years. ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/114 "2012-07-07T02:48:23Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Huh? > > You’re making scientific claims so please give a biological/scientific definition of what is a “black” person and what is a “white” person. > > If what you were saying was remotely true as opposed to pseudo-scientific bullshit you should be able to come up with some definitions. I personally feel this is beneath this thread, and this forum. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/115 "2012-07-07T02:56:36Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > How many black people do you even KNOW? Do you really think anyone is explaining this math to them? No. They like the status that goes with being an NBA player, and that’s all they give a shit about, when it comes to choosing a sport. NFL is second best for them. Baseball is barely on the map, unless they are waaay too short for basketball, too slow to play a speed-based football position, and too small to play a brute-force-based football position. Kirby Puckett comes to mind. He’s an excellent example of an _incredibly_ talented black baseball player whose physical attributes don’t put him squarely in any of the right categories for basketball or football. He was only 5’8", and stocky, but not big enough for an offensive lineman. > > Do you even know that one of the biggest positive adjectives in urban black lingo is “baller”? Here’s a note–“baller” refers to basketball, not baseball. I have not said that basketball is not a preferred sport for black kids. You said that they were leaving baseball for basketball. The numbers say that that is not remotely true. I am perfectly willing to accept that baseball has become less popular and, thus, draws fewer kids. (I suspect that the same thing is true of white American kids, also, hence the explosion of foreign players.) I merely noted that your particular claim for a particular sport was unrealistic. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/116 "2012-07-07T02:57:05Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Huh? > > You’re making scientific claims so please give a biological/scientific definition of what is a “black” person and what is a “white” person. > > If what you were saying was remotely true as opposed to pseudo-scientific bullshit you should be able to come up with some definitions. When you said: > [@Ibn Warraq](#): > > Brazil has an unofficial case system where the rulers tend to be white What did you mean by white in that sentence? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/117 "2012-07-07T03:13:29Z")
“Black” and “white” have a cultural meaning. Ascribing scientific values to the cultural meaning is dangerous, so more precise terms should be used when you are making a biological or scientific argument. When you are making a cultural argument, “black” and “white” have the meaning ascribed to them by the culture. ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/118 "2012-07-07T03:22:57Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > “Black” and “white” have a cultural meaning. Ascribing scientific values to the cultural meaning is dangerous, so more precise terms should be used when you are making a biological or scientific argument. When you are making a cultural argument, “black” and “white” have the meaning ascribed to them by the culture. _facepalm_ Seriously? THIS is what we’ve come to? Political correctness at the expense of honest scientific inquiry? ROFL ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/119 "2012-07-07T03:29:43Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > _facepalm_ > > Seriously? THIS is what we’ve come to? Political correctness at the expense of honest scientific inquiry? > > ROFL There’s a [thread in the Pit](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=653465). It explains all of this. It has nothing to do with “political correctness” and everything to do with actual science. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/120 "2012-07-07T03:33:27Z")
> [@treis](#): > > When you said: > > What did you mean by white in that sentence? Apologies. I should have said they have been considered “white” or “blancs”. In Brazil you are only considered white if you are of 100% European descent or nearly 100% European descent. Now, since you seem to be accepting of Brazilian standards on “black” and “white” presumably you’ll retract your statements since by Brazilian standards there are virtually no blacks in the NFL and blacks in the NFL are heavily outnumbered by whites. If you disagree the please give your definition of “white” and “black” and why you agree with Brazilians when it comes to who is “white” but not who is “black”. Thanks. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414.md?page=7)