# Critique this: Why blacks run faster **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 6, 2012, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414 "2012-07-06T13:42:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/121 "2012-07-07T03:35:05Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Apologies. > > I should have said they have been considered “white” or “blancs”. > > In Brazil you are only considered white if you are of 100% European descent. > > Now, since you seem to be accepting of Brazilian standards on “black” and “white” presumably you’ll retract your statements since by Brazilian standards there are virtually no blacks in the NFL and blacks in the NFL are heavily outnumbered by whites. > > If you disagree the please give your definition of “white” and “black” and why you agree with Brazilians when it comes to who is “white” but not who is “black”. > > Thanks. > Thanks. You’ve managed to confuse me, I’ll admit. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/122 "2012-07-07T03:39:00Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > I personally feel this is beneath this thread, and this forum. If you’re going to make comments like the above then you shouldn’t follow it up by responding to another comment like you were an 11-year-old. > [@](#): > > _facepalm_ > > Seriously? THIS is what we’ve come to? Political correctness at the expense of honest scientific inquiry? > > ROFL Now, please explain what was wrong with my comment. Also, I’d recommend looking up both “Political correctness” and “honest scientific inquiry” since your last comment doesn’t inspire confidence in your knowledge of or ability to analyze either. Thanks ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/123 "2012-07-07T03:39:25Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I don’t think it makes a strong argument at all. It’s hard to strip out other factors like culture, but somehow, each sport tends to be dominated by the types of people who play it the most, and that makes me think the answer is not genetic. If you were talking about sports that required the acquisition of skill, like baseball and hockey, I’d say you were right. Hell, that was even true, bout to a lesser extent, of basketball. But speed isn’t a thing you need to be taught. You are either fast or you aren’t. Training, coaching nutrition, etc, can help you improve among the set of people born with abilities near your own, but it really can’t move you from a B+ runner to an A+ runner. Assuming those others are getting coached/trained, as well. > [@Marley23](#): > > It’s not at all mind boggling when you consider the shoddy nature of the science and the nasty inferences people start drawing. Yeah, but science is not to supposed be concerned with that. Something either true or it isn’t. But I see your point about people worrying about the worst. But I think it’s dumb. Races are different. This shouldn’t be surprising. We see outward manifestations of this with height, stature, hair type, skin color, facial features. It should be not surprising at all if there were differences that become evident through performance. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/124 "2012-07-07T03:40:12Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Apologies. > > I should have said they have been considered “white” or “blancs”. > > In Brazil you are only considered white if you are of 100% European descent or nearly 100% European descent. I see. And Brazilians go around conducting genetic tests to determine this? What genetic markers do they use? > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Now, since you seem to be accepting of Brazilian standards on “black” and “white” presumably you’ll retract your statements since by Brazilian standards there are virtually no blacks in the NFL and blacks in the NFL are heavily outnumbered by whites. > > If you disagree the please give your definition of “white” and “black” and why you agree with Brazilians when it comes to who is “white” but not who is “black”. > > Thanks. My definition of black: Most Americans would say “Hey, that’s a black guy”. My definition of white: Most Americans would say “Hey, that’s a white guy”. I understand that some people won’t fall into either category as they are or appear mixed, I understand that there won’t be 100% agreement, but I think it is good enough. ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/125 "2012-07-07T03:40:51Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > There’s a [thread in the Pit](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=653465). It explains all of this. It has nothing to do with “political correctness” and everything to do with actual science. Yes, I am aware of the racist mess in the Pit. I PARTICIPATED in it. However, it’s patently silly to ask for definitions of white/black in this context. Until a few hundred years ago, West Africa, East Africa, and Europe were _very_ genetically-distinct places. Distinct to a VERY statistically-significant degree, in terms of morphology. That’s mathematically verifiable, feel free to research it. Even today, there are literally hundreds of millions of people who are still either pure Northern European, pure West African, or pure East African. My very scientifically-verifiable point is that there are statistically-significant differences in morphology that track VERY well with geography. Any good physical anthropologist has done multiple papers on this very fact. Really, it’s not all that different than the variations in morphology between the big cats. Cheetahs can run 70 MPH. Lions can barely do 50 MPH. However, a cheetah could never beat a full-grown lion in a one-on-one fight-to-the-death. They’re both big cats, but they have very different prey and hunting strategies. Speed versus strength. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/126 "2012-07-07T03:42:41Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > You’ve managed to confuse me, I’ll admit. Sorry for that. Anyway, Treis seems to think that it’s obvious who is “black” and who is “white”. He also seems to feel that the Brazilian understandings of those terms, or at least that of “white” is correct. I’m asking him to explain how he defines “black” and “white” since by Brazilian logic there are very few “blacks” in the NFL and the “blacks” in the NFL are dramatically outnumbered by “whites”. Anyway, hopefully, he’ll respond and explain what he meant when he referred to some people as “black” and others as “white”. ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/127 "2012-07-07T03:43:20Z")
Clearly we don’t have any physical anthropologists on the board. They would set you people straight in a heartbeat. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/128 "2012-07-07T03:50:45Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Sorry for that. > > Anyway, Treis seems to think that it’s obvious who is “black” and who is “white”. > > He also seems to feel that the Brazilian understandings of those terms, or at least that of “white” is correct. > > I’m asking him to explain how he defines “black” and “white” since by Brazilian logic there are very few “blacks” in the NFL and the “blacks” in the NFL are dramatically outnumbered by “whites”. > > Anyway, hopefully, he’ll respond and explain what he meant when he referred to some people as “black” and others as “white”. I guess where it becomes confusing for me is you said that Brazilian definitions of “white” are very restrictive, more restrictive even than American definitions, so by Brazilian reckoning, aren’t there fewer whites in the NFL? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/129 "2012-07-07T03:51:52Z")
> [@treis](#): > > My definition of black: Most Americans would say “Hey, that’s a black guy”. > My definition of white: Most Americans would say “Hey, that’s a white guy”. > > I understand that some people won’t fall into either category as they are or appear mixed, I understand that there won’t be 100% agreement, but I think it is good enough. Thank you for admitting then that your definitions are illogical and based on pseudo-scientific bullshit rather than anything that could be described as logical or objective as well as being hopeless provincial and based on a rather narrow-minded, ignorant, Americo-centric view of the world. I also think it’s hysterically funny when you say “I understand that some people won’t fall into either category or appear mixed” when the overwhelming majority of African-Americans “appear mixed” and to the people of virtually all countries where the majority of the population is of Sub-Saharran descent “won’t fall into either category”. Now, by your rather sulkily quoting my comment regarding Brazil you seem to be implying that you agree with the Brazilian definition of “white”. So, why do you disagree with the Brazilian definition of “black”? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/130 "2012-07-07T03:52:31Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > It doesn’t argue strongly at all. There are all sorts of ethnic groups that dominate all sorts of different sports. Now, if you want to say that it invites investigation of a genetic component, yes. But that is the beginning of the process, not the end. I’m in agreement with the last part of this, but not the first. As I just said in my previous post, culture matters not when it comes to skills that require no training to acquire. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > I don’t think people are against the notion that certain ethnic groups might be more or less genetically disposed to excel in certain sports. Few would argue that Filipinos aren’t going to do well in basketball. > > What people in this thread are fighting against is a bunch of folk-science being floated around that has so many holes you can drive a truck through it. If that was all that goes on in these threads I’d be in agreement. What gets me is that people have such an intense desire to not have it be the case that something like speed can have a genetic component, and then it may correlate along racial lines. And there’s always the old stand-by, “Well, that might be true, but you’re assuming there are things called “races”.” Yeesh. Talking about speed really is a perfect example for the discussion, because as I mentioned, it’s really not an acquired skill. And it’s something kids of all backgrounds and cultures engage in. And the fact is, you’re either fast or your not. Period. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/131 "2012-07-07T03:55:58Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > I guess where it becomes confusing for me is you said that Brazilian definitions of “white” are very restrictive, more restrictive even than American definitions, so by Brazilian reckoning, aren’t there fewer whites in the NFL? What makes you think that Brazilian definitions of white are “more restrictive” than “American definitions”? By Brazilian standards, Adolph Plessy or Plessy V. Ferguson fame was a white or “Blanc” while by American standards he was a negro. Anyway, by Brazilian standards, “whites” are people of 100% European descent and people who are of 100% European descent vastly outnumber people of 100% African descent in the NFL. ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/132 "2012-07-07T03:57:08Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > Until a few hundred years ago, West Africa, East Africa, and Europe were _very_ genetically-distinct places. Distinct to a VERY statistically-significant degree, in terms of morphology. That’s mathematically verifiable, feel free to research it. > > Even today, there are literally hundreds of millions of people who are still either pure Northern European, pure West African, or pure East African. > > My very scientifically-verifiable point is that there are statistically-significant differences in morphology that track VERY well with geography. Any good physical anthropologist has done multiple papers on this very fact. > > Really, it’s not all that different than the variations in morphology between the big cats. Cheetahs can run 70 MPH. Lions can barely do 50 MPH. However, a cheetah could never beat a full-grown lion in a one-on-one fight-to-the-death. They’re both big cats, but they have very different prey and hunting strategies. Speed versus strength. Reposting, in case it got lost in the shuffle. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/133 "2012-07-07T03:57:55Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > Yes, I am aware of the racist mess in the Pit. I PARTICIPATED in it. > > However, it’s patently silly to ask for definitions of white/black in this context. You participated in it and still don’t actually understand the difference between the cultural meaning of races and the genetic meaning? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/134 "2012-07-07T03:59:54Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > What makes you think that Brazilian definitions of white are “more restrictive” than “American definitions”? Because people Americans would call “white” often have some non-European heritage. You didn’t define what Brazilians would call “black,” unless I missed it. > [@](#): > > By Brazilian standards, Adolph Plessy or Plessy V. Ferguson fame was a white or “Blanc” while by American standards he was a negro. > > Anyway, by Brazilian standards, “whites” are people of 100% European descent … But Plessy was not 100% of European descent. This is where my confusion lies. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/135 "2012-07-07T04:03:22Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > If you were talking about sports that required the acquisition of skill, like baseball and hockey, I’d say you were right. Hell, that was even true, bout to a lesser extent, of basketball. Basketball, baseball, and hockey all acquire the acquisition of skills. Speed is important in all of those sports. Basketball is dominated by black players; hockey and baseball are not. Do you think there are genetic explanations for that? > [@](#): > > Yeah, but science is not to supposed be concerned with that. We were discussing why people are uncomfortable with these sorts of theories. The answer is that they’re not well supported by science, the implications are ugly, and whenever they’re brought up, racial stereotypes never seem to be far behind. > [@](#): > > Races are different. No, they aren’t. > [@](#): > > We see outward manifestations of this with height, stature, hair type, skin color, facial features. It should be not surprising at all if there were differences that become evident through performance. I would actually find that very surprising. But that’s another way in which this thread is typical: the title says “blacks run faster,” but as the discussion went on, it was narrowed to “black descendants of slaves run faster,” then “West African blacks run faster” and “maybe people whose descendants come from a particular region in Senegal run faster.” It starts off as a racial generalization that isn’t supported by evidence, then gets repeatedly narrowed down to an more plausible idea that is supported by some anecdotes but not by real hard evidence Then people start using it as an example of racial differences even though it’s no longer a generalization about races. So when you impugn the motives and reasonability of people who are uncomfortable with these theories and unpersuaded of their validity, I consider that a bluff. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/136 "2012-07-07T04:03:33Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > If Ted Williams and Babe Ruth had played as little baseball as Jordan, they’d have hit like him. > > Conversely, perhaps if Jordan had concentrated on baseball to the exclusion of basketball the way Dave Winfield, who was the same height did, perhaps like Winfield, he’d be in the Baseball Hall of Fame. I doubt it. Ted Williams had exceptionally acute eyesight, considerably better than 20-20. He claimed that this was a large contributing factor to his hitting. And the fact is that being tall is a real disadvantage for a good batting average. Winfield was unusual in this regard. Whereas a good majority of the players who do at least as well in the NBA are over 6’6". You seem desperate to ignore the fact that different sports align with different physical gifts. And within each sport, different positions align with different physical gifts. Look at the breakdown of the NFL that’s been provided. Look at sprinters in the Olympics. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/137 "2012-07-07T04:05:01Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > Michael Jordan batted around .202 in his stint in AA minor league baseball. > > Athletic ability is athletic ability. Period. Jordan would probably have been a better hitter if he didn’t have one of the largest strike zones in the league. You can’t start playing professional baseball at 30 and expect much no matter how tall you are. Dave Winfield was just as tall as Jordan and seems to have worked out okay. ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/138 "2012-07-07T04:08:55Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > You participated in it and still don’t actually understand the difference between the cultural meaning of races and the genetic meaning? Do you just not have the time to read post I just made about morphology and geography? I even reposted it. If you don’t think geography tracks with morphology, look at Usain Bolt, Carl Lewis, and Michael Johnson. All West-African-descended, all thin guys, but they definitely have some muscles. Then compare them to the Kenyan steeplechase and marathon winners. Those guys barely have enough flesh to cover their bones. They have enough muscle to move around at a decent speed, and not a bit more. Then take a look at the average Russian powerlifter. Slab-muscled, with a sizeable gut, and strong as a fucking ox, so to speak. Yes, some of these differences are due to training. However, nobody on this thread is stupid enough to think there’ll ever be an East-African-descended world champion powerlifter. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/139 "2012-07-07T04:12:29Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Thank you for admitting then that your definitions are illogical and based on pseudo-scientific bullshit rather than anything that could be described as logical or objective as well as being hopeless provincial and based on a rather narrow-minded, ignorant, Americo-centric view of the world. > > I also think it’s hysterically funny when you say “I understand that some people won’t fall into either category or appear mixed” when the overwhelming majority of African-Americans “appear mixed” and to the people of virtually all countries where the majority of the population is of Sub-Saharran descent “won’t fall into either category”. > > Now, by your rather sulkily quoting my comment regarding Brazil you seem to be implying that you agree with the Brazilian definition of “white”. > > So, why do you disagree with the Brazilian definition of “black”? Whatever. You asked for my definition of black. I gave it, and I can only assume the writer used the same standard. If you want to say the facts I gave are wrong because the author doesn’t know how to identify a black person, just say so and we will all think you are being ridiculously obtuse. No reason for all of this rigmarole. ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/140 "2012-07-07T04:14:49Z")
> [@treis](#): > > If you want to say the facts you gave are wrong because the author doesn’t know how to identify a black person, just say so and we will all think you are being ridiculously obtuse. No reason for all of this rigmarole. Yep. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414.md?page=8)