# Critique this: Why blacks run faster **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 6, 2012, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414 "2012-07-06T13:42:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/141 "2012-07-07T04:16:57Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > But Plessy was not 100% of European descent. This is where my confusion lies. Apologies, I should have said “100% or nearly 100% European descent.” And yes, as Thomas Sowell pointed out, under their old color laws, Plessy would have been considered white. For the record, Plessy didn’t consider himself black and was quite offended at the suggestion he was. Many from New Orleans agreed. The great Jazz musician Jelly Roll Morton once famously bragged “there’s no nigger in my blood” even though according to Treis he was “black”. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/142 "2012-07-07T04:19:31Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Basketball, baseball, and hockey all acquire the acquisition of skills. Speed is important in all of those sports. Basketball is dominated by black players; hockey and baseball are not. Do you think there are genetic explanations for that? No, I think that can most likely be explained through culture. At the very least, there’s only a tiny sliver of the black population who ever has an opportunity to play hockey. As you correctly pointed out, the sports you mentioned require mastery of a skill that needs to be taught and practiced. The more that is the case, IMO the more culture is the most likely explanation for one group dominating. > [@Marley23](#): > > We were discussing why people are uncomfortable with these sorts of theories. The answer is that they’re not well supported by science, the implications are ugly, and whenever they’re brought up, racial stereotypes never seem to be far behind. Facts are facts. They’re either true or they aren’t. Uncomfortable or not. As a moderator on a board devoting to fighting ignorance, I’m sure you understand that this is the foundation of knowledge. It’s just odd that you seem to view it as Kryptonite. 😉 > [@Marley23](#): > > No, they aren’t You know, the things in the “they” you’re referring to, if there were no differences, differences that constitute things we refer to as race, you wouldn’t have been able to type the word. > [@Marley23](#): > > I would actually find that very surprising. But that’s another way in which this thread is typical: the title says “blacks run faster,” but as the discussion went on, it was narrowed to “black descendants of slaves run faster,” then “West African blacks run faster” and “maybe people whose descendants come from a particular region in Senegal run faster.” It starts off as a racial generalization that isn’t supported by evidence, then gets repeatedly narrowed down to an more plausible idea that is supported by some anecdotes but not by real hard evidence Then people start using it as an example of racial differences even though it’s no longer a generalization about races. So when you impugn the motives and reasonability of people who are uncomfortable with these theories and unpersuaded of their validity, I consider that a bluff. I think the slave angle was nonsense. But the broader proposition that there are physical differences that manifest themselves in speed that correlate very strongly with the outwardly defining physical characteristics of those whose ancestry can be traced back to West Africa has lots of support in the real world. Again, just look at the NFL and the Olympics. What do you think is a more plausible explanation for the dominance of athletes with a West African heritage? If you have a better explanation I’d really be interested in hearing it. ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/143 "2012-07-07T04:20:14Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > The great Jazz musician Jelly Roll Morton once famously bragged “there’s no nigger in my blood” even though according to Treis he was “black”. You’re killing me. This is your post? Stop arguing with Treis for a moment, please, and try to address my points about physical anthropology and morphology. I’d like to see what you can do with that. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/144 "2012-07-07T04:20:43Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I doubt it. Ted Williams had exceptionally acute eyesight, considerably better than 20-20. He claimed that this was a large contributing factor to his hitting. And the fact is that being tall is a real disadvantage for a good batting average. Winfield was unusual in this regard. I guess it depends what you mean by “tall,” but it is not immediately obvious that being tall is a disadvantage for being a good major league hitter. In the last ten years, 13 hitters have won MVP awards (one pitcher won an MVP, and some players won it more than once.) Of those 13 hitters, all but two are taller than 6 feet: Joe Mauer - 6’5" Josh Hamilton - 6’4" Ryan Howard- 6’4" Justin Morneau - 6’4" Vladimir Guerrero - 6’3" Alex Rodriguez (3 awards) - 6’3" Joey Votto - 6’3" Albert Pujols (3 awards) - 6’3" Barry Bonds (3 awards) - 6’1" Ryan Braun - 6’1" Miguel Tejada - 5’9" Dustin Pedroia - 5’8" Jimmy Rollins - 5’8" Most elite hitters do seem to be fairly tall; indeed, the only guys below 6 feet are notable for being the three awards given to middle infielders, who weren’t the hitting superstars the other guys were but combined solid hitting with defensive value. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/145 "2012-07-07T04:22:17Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Apologies, I should have said “100% or nearly 100% European descent.” And yes, as Thomas Sowell pointed out, under their old color laws, Plessy would have been considered white. For the record, Plessy didn’t consider himself black and was quite offended at the suggestion he was. That strikes me as a little unlikely, considering that he deliberately revealed his heritage to the train conductor in order to make a point. He could have passed, but chose not to. (From his picture, I think you’d only see “black” features if you were really looking for them.) ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/146 "2012-07-07T04:22:30Z")
This all goes back to the old Nature vs. Nurture argument. Only a fool thinks that it’s all genetics, or all environment. ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/147 "2012-07-07T04:24:17Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Most elite hitters do seem to be fairly tall; indeed, the only guys below 6 feet are notable for being the three awards given to middle infielders, who weren’t the hitting superstars the other guys were but combined solid hitting with defensive value. Yes, but you’re overlooking the fact that height generally correlates with strength. Simply being able to hit the ball further is closely correlated with being a better hitter, and it takes extra strength to do that. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/148 "2012-07-07T04:41:20Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I doubt it. Ted Williams had exceptionally acute eyesight, considerably better than 20-20. He claimed that this was a large contributing factor to his hitting. Bullshit. Ted Williams most certainly did not claim it was why he did so good and repeatedly insisted throughout his biography _My Turn At Ba_t(which I recommend to all fans of baseball) that his eyesight was not remotely as amazing as people thought and most of the stories about how amazing it was were either complete bullshit or exaggerations. Instead he spent much of it describing how he dedicated most of his childhood and early adulthood to becoming the best hitter of all time, spending hours each day working on his hitting and how when he got the majors how he bent the ear of every player he could to get their advice on the strengths and weaknesses of each pitcher, how he relentlessly observed each pitcher when throwing and how he drove his teammates crazy by quizzing each one of them when they came back to the dugout on the pitcher they’d just faced. Now, does that mean he didn’t have “natural” or “genetic” advantages? No, but based on his biography it’s pretty clear that had he only dedicated the amount of time to Baseball that Michael Jordan did, he wouldn’t have been much more successful than Jordan and he always attributed his success to his work ethic and near fanatical devotion to his craft. As Bill James, one of the most respected baseball analysts said in his famous Abstract. > [@](#): > > One other note about Williams. Hundreds of sources, in discussing Williams’ greatness as as hitter, will talk about what amazing eyesight he had, how he could see the seams on the ball, could read the label on a spinning phonograph record, etc. Williams explicitly stated in his autobiography, My Turn at Bat, that this was completely false, that his eyesight was good but normal and that his eyes had little or nothing to do with his hitting ability. And since he is the only one who would know, I might suggest we should perhaps take his word. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/149 "2012-07-07T04:56:36Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > You’re killing me. This is your post? > > Stop arguing with Treis for a moment, please, and try to address my points about physical anthropology and morphology. I’d like to see what you can do with that. With all due respect, why would I wish to have a conversation with someone who is so scientifically illiterate that he thinks an appropriate analogy to comparing East Africans and West Africans is to compare Lions and Cheetahs? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/150 "2012-07-07T04:59:53Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > Yes, but you’re overlooking the fact that height generally correlates with strength. Simply being able to hit the ball further is closely correlated with being a better hitter, and it takes extra strength to do that. Of course Mickey Mantle hit the longest measured homers of all time, was listed at 5-11 and was probably only about 5-9. Similarly, Kirby Pucket was short and stocky as was Yogi Berra and Roy Campanella. The fact is that baseball hitters come in all shapes and sizes. ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/151 "2012-07-07T05:01:32Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > With all due respect, why would I wish to have a conversation with someone who is so scientifically illiterate that he thinks an appropriate analogy to comparing East Africans and West Africans is to compare Lions and Cheetahs? Um, I’m about to report you. Prepare for a warning. Seriously, if you’ve got no ammo left in the gun, don’t just throw the gun. Surrendering is a smarter option. ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/152 "2012-07-07T05:02:36Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Of course Mickey Mantle hit the longest measured homers of all time, was listed at 5-11 and was probably only about 5-9. > > Similarly, Kirby Pucket was short and stocky as was Yogi Berra and Roy Campanella. Mantle is an outlier. As for the others, their stockiness made up for their lack of height. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/153 "2012-07-07T05:06:46Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > Um, I’m about to report you. Prepare for a warning. It’s good of you to alert people about the devastating, horrible repercussions of defying lion/cheetah analogies. Frankly, I think he should be forced to listen to Justin Bieber. Or maybe shot. He can pick. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/154 "2012-07-07T05:08:00Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > What do you think is a more plausible explanation for the dominance of athletes with a West African heritage? If you have a better explanation I’d really be interested in hearing it. Of course most of those athletes you’re alluding to are of European heritage as well. A more accurate analysis would note the the world’s dominant sprinters are “blacks” from the US, Canada, and Jamaica, countries which contain a tiny fraction of the world’s population that is of African ancestry and completely excludes countries such as the Dominican Republic, Cuba, Venezuela with as large or larger West African populations and countries like Brazil with vastly larger West African populations. ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/155 "2012-07-07T05:08:54Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > It’s good of you to alert people about the devastating, horrible repercussions of defying lion/cheetah analogies. Frankly, I think he should be forced to listen to Justin Bieber. Or maybe shot. He can pick. So in other words, you think any differences between the average top speeds of lions and cheetahs can be attributed to…what? Desire? Upbringing? Nutrition? Maybe the desire to support the cases of internet racists? I’m listening. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/156 "2012-07-07T05:11:39Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > So in other words, you think any differences between the average top speeds of lions and cheetahs can be attributed to…what? Desire? Upbringing? Nutrition? > > Maybe the desire to support the cases of internet racists? > > I’m listening. They are actually different species. I know, I should have let you sit down before I told you. ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/157 "2012-07-07T05:12:30Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > A more accurate analysis would note the the world’s dominant sprinters are “blacks” from the US, Canada, and Jamaica, countries which contain a tiny fraction of the world’s population that is of African ancestry and completely excludes countries such as the Dominican Republic, Cuba, Venezuela with as large or larger West African populations and countries like Brazil with vastly larger West African populations. This is 100% true. However, Brazilians/Venezuelans/etc. neither have the money nor the desire to create world-class sprinters. They love soccer/football, and couldn’t care less about sprinting. The US, OTOH, has many times the money, hates soccer, and does find the 100-meter dash a fairly compelling event. Jamaica has almost no money, but they treat the 100 meters like the Brazilians treat soccer, but even more so. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/158 "2012-07-07T05:14:45Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > Um, I’m about to report you. Prepare for a warning. > > Seriously, if you’ve got no ammo left in the gun, don’t just throw the gun. Surrendering is a smarter option. Sigh. I wasn’t insulting you, but describing your posts. Yes, it is scientifically illiterate to think that an appropriate analogy to comparing West African and East Africans is to compare lions and cheetahs. That does not mean you are stupid, racist, or evil, just wrong and that you have a rather dramatically flawed understanding of the differences among humans. ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/159 "2012-07-07T05:15:17Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > They are actually different species. > > I know, I should have let you sit down before I told you. It’s quite possible that cheetahs and lions can interbreed. For that matter, lions and tigers are ‘different species’, and they are VERY capable of interbreeding, hence ‘ligers’ and ‘tigons’. Morphologically, there’s quite a bit of difference between the average African pygmy and a 6-foot-tall Scandanavian. They can still interbreed, though. ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/160 "2012-07-07T05:16:19Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Sigh. > > I wasn’t insulting you, but describing your posts. > > Yes, it is scientifically illiterate to think that an appropriate analogy to comparing West African and East Africans is to compare lions and cheetahs. > > That does not mean you are stupid, racist, or evil, just wrong and that you have a rather dramatically flawed understanding of the differences among humans. I give up. You’ve made up your mind, and are planning to just continue insulting me if I keep posting. You win. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414.md?page=9)