# Critique this: Why blacks run faster **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 6, 2012, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414 "2012-07-06T13:42:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/161 "2012-07-07T05:26:26Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > It’s quite possible that cheetahs and lions can interbreed. > > For that matter, lions and tigers are ‘different species’, and they are VERY capable of interbreeding, hence ‘ligers’ and ‘tigons’. Since your argument is bouncing around like a leetah (chion?) on crack, maybe you can just start with whether you believe human races are separate species. ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/162 "2012-07-07T05:29:02Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Since your argument is bouncing around like a leetah (chion?) on crack, maybe you can just start with whether you believe human races are separate species. I think it’s a pointless question. Who cares? Are lions and tigers separate species? They look pretty different, one’s solitary, one’s more social, but they can interbreed. It’s just not an interesting question. To me, the concept of species actually gets in the way of really understanding nature. And here’s a clue–when you’re doing the great majority of the personal insulting in an argument, it’s usually time to step back and rethink. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/163 "2012-07-07T05:32:23Z")
EVERYONE settle down. Anyone who feels the need to go on about insults, or give insults, or take insults where none was offered, take it to The BBQ Pit. Stick to the topic and stop making comments about other posters. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/164 "2012-07-07T05:33:16Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/165 "2012-07-07T06:09:00Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > I give up. You’ve made up your mind, and are planning to just continue insulting me if I keep posting. You win. I didn’t insult you. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/166 "2012-07-07T06:15:44Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I didn’t insult you. Are you going to drop this, or should I just issue you a Warning now? Stick to the topic. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Dio2112](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Dio2112](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dio2112)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/167 "2012-07-07T06:50:44Z")
Why is it so hard for people to see their own biases in thinking? We are not setting policy here, we are supposed to be fighting ignorance. The major lights on this board, including all the relevant moderators (apparently) support the notion that all human beings are essentially the same and any variation along any measure is purely cultural. This is absurd. Humanity covers the globe. It didn’t achieve that spread in a single conquest. It took tens of thousands of years. Of course there are going to be variations in morphology and phenotype among geographically disparate groupings of humans who have had different selection pressures for mating. If I am reading this board right, posters who otherwise are incisively critical on neutral subjects lose their fucking minds on this issue. You can take a wild, biting, aggressive, vicious fox and turn him into a dog-like pet within four generations through highly selective breeding. Why similar effects cannot be achieved with normal social/sexual selection over the course of 10,000 years or more is a mystery to me. ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/168 "2012-07-07T06:54:32Z")
The problem with such topics is that, even if there was strong scientific evidence of correlation between racial genetics and athletic ability, there would be the fear that racist nutjobs would use that information and twist it and use it against blacks. So, by default, most people on the SDMB won’t even entertain the possibility of this genetic link existing, which means that all such discussions go nowhere. Not that the “proof” provided so far has been compelling, just saying… ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/169 "2012-07-07T07:05:21Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Are you going to drop this, or should I just issue you a Warning now? > > Stick to the topic. > > [/Moderating] Sorry, I was responding to a charge he made against me not trying to stir up shit and I dropped it when I said I didn’t want to interact with him. Anyway, back to the OP. It should be noted that during the days of the Soviet Union, the Soviet Basketball team was almost 100% if not 100% Lithuanian despite the fact that ethnic Lithuanians made up only about 1% of the Soviet population, however I don’t think anyone seriously argues that Lithuanians had some genetic advantage over Russians when it came to playing basketball. ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/170 "2012-07-07T07:08:21Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > It should be noted that during the days of the Soviet Union, the Soviet Basketball team was almost 100% if not 100% Lithuanian You need to provide a cite for that. I don’t think it’s remotely true. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/171 "2012-07-07T07:11:58Z")
> [@Dio2112](#): > > The major lights on this board, including all the relevant moderators (apparently) support the notion that all human beings are essentially the same and any variation along any measure is purely cultural. This is absurd. What is absurd is suggesting that I have ever made anything that could be remotely characterized as expressing that opinion. If you must build straw men, please leave me out of your schemes. ---
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/172 "2012-07-07T07:47:39Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Any one else getting deja vu to the black swimmers thread? An OP states that some discrepancy in racial representation must be genetic, extrapolates out to black people in general, then gets shirty when people try to explain how genetics (and culture) works. I relayed Michael Johnson’s presentation, aided as he was by several experts. It’s interesting you mention black swimmers because I was pretty surprised my highly educated gym instructor also mention that when we were talking about muscle density (related to testosterone levels) - obv. now substitute ‘black’ for ‘slave descendents’. > [@Dio2112](#): > > Why is it so hard for people to see their own biases in thinking? We are not setting policy here, we are supposed to be fighting ignorance. > > The major lights on this board, including all the relevant moderators (apparently) support the notion that all human beings are essentially the same and any variation along any measure is purely cultural. This is absurd. > > Humanity covers the globe. It didn’t achieve that spread in a single conquest. It took tens of thousands of years. Of course there are going to be variations in morphology and phenotype among geographically disparate groupings of humans who have had different selection pressures for mating. If I am reading this board right, posters who otherwise are incisively critical on neutral subjects lose their fucking minds on this issue. > > You can take a wild, biting, aggressive, vicious fox and turn him into a dog-like pet within four generations through highly selective breeding. Why similar effects cannot be achieved with normal social/sexual selection over the course of 10,000 years or more is a mystery to me. Maybe the world is an awful lot easier to live in if you keep it simple; all men were created equal, everyone is equal. Equal, equal, equal, and the fact of all 8 Olympic finalists being slave descendents ain’t no thing. > [@Polerius](#): > > Not that the “proof” provided so far has been compelling, just saying… What proof? There is no ‘proof’ and none has been suggested - Michael Johnson was interested in exploring the fact of slave descendents performing so well in some athletic disciplines. While we’re at it, there was no proof of Darwin’s theories for 120 years and many would argue there still isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/173 "2012-07-07T08:03:24Z")
> [@treis](#): > > But this ignores the racial breakdown within the sport. Here’s an article someone did breaking down all of the starting lineups [http://blogs.citypages.com/blotter/2008/12/nfl\_a\_study\_in.php](http://blogs.citypages.com/blotter/2008/12/nfl_a_study_in.php). It’s a couple years old, but the breakdown is still similar. A few key positions: > > Wide Receiver (64 starters) > > 59- Black (92 percent) > 3- White (5 percent) > 1- Other (2 percent) > > Running Back (32 starters) > > 32- Black (100 percent) > > Defensive Back (128 starters) > > 123- Black (96 percent) > 4- White (3 percent) > 1- Other (1 percent) > > Every position where the important physical attribute is speed and agility is dominated by blacks. The one position whites are in the majority is the offensive line, coincidentally where bulk and size are more important than speed or agility. > > Here is a breakdown of Somoan players in the NFL: [http://www.ipacific.com/forum/index.php?topic=490.0](http://www.ipacific.com/forum/index.php?topic=490.0) > > If you note, there are no WRs, CBs, or RBs. > > You can argue about culture a lot, and yes that is certainly part of it, but it’s ridiculous to ignore genes as a contributing factor. I’d be a lot more interested in this post if you focused on slave descendents - as relevant to the OP. I made the point earlier slave descendents could generally be identified by nationality, ethnicity and last name (American/Caribbean, black with Anglo-Saxon last names), but someone kept mocking that without explaining why … maybe there is a flaw in the logic … ---
**Author:** ![Kyomara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8edcca/32.png) [@Kyomara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyomara)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/174 "2012-07-07T08:16:55Z")
> [@Dio2112](#): > > The major lights on this board, including all the relevant moderators (apparently) support the notion that all human beings are essentially the same and any variation along any measure is purely cultural. This is absurd. I don’t think that’s what they’re saying. What they’re saying is that while there do exist physiological differences between groups and communities of people, the traditional notion of “race” is not useful in analyzing or understanding those differences. For example, it is misguided to lump all “blacks” together, all “whites” together, all “Asians” together, etc., because these groups are not actually identical enough amongst themselves to provide any meaningful basis for analysis. Depending on the physiological differences being discussed, it is more meaningful to identify people based on nationality or some other grouping. The tendency to lump people in to “races” should be avoided because it is inaccurate. However, another good reason to avoid traditional notions of “race” is that it feeds back into so many ancient prejudices, which can have the effect not only of confusing the innocent, but also of providing a convenient venue for actual racists to present their prejudices as “science.” ---
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 8:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/175 "2012-07-07T08:28:01Z")
Just a reminder, the OP isn’t interested in ‘race’. Interest is in a specific, identifiable, over-performing group. Even the fact of this group being ‘black’ is incidental, it could be any population. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/176 "2012-07-07T13:14:25Z")
> [@PrettyVacant](#): > > I’d be a lot more interested in this post if you focused on slave descendents - as relevant to the OP. > > I made the point earlier slave descendents could generally be identified by nationality, ethnicity and last name (American/Caribbean, black with Anglo-Saxon last names), but someone kept mocking that without explaining why … maybe there is a flaw in the logic … So you won’t talk _to_ me anymore, but talking _about_ me is o.k.? At least get one thing straight: What I mocked was your claim that you could tell [from _this_ list](http://www.alltime-athletics.com/m_100ok.htm) if someone was descended from slaves merely by seeing their names and the country they ran for. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/177 "2012-07-07T14:13:52Z")
> [@PrettyVacant](#): > > Just a reminder, the OP isn’t interested in ‘race’. Interest is in a specific, identifiable, over-performing group. Even the fact of this group being ‘black’ is incidental, it could be any population. But there isn’t anything genetically unique about that population. “Jamaican” isn’t a population that is identifiably different from any number of other populations in the New World. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/178 "2012-07-07T14:45:01Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > But there isn’t anything genetically unique about that population. “Jamaican” isn’t a population that is identifiably different from any number of other populations in the New World. Agreed. In fact they’re not all that identifiably different from from populations that have produced zero world class sprinters. ---
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/179 "2012-07-07T15:22:56Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > But there isn’t anything genetically unique about that population. “Jamaican” isn’t a population that is identifiably different from any number of other populations in the New World. Well then, work with ‘slave descendent’, as the OP invites you to do. No one is denying culture plays a part, and Jamaica may well have the highest cultural component - those eight slave descendents who comprised the Beijing 100m final came from the USA and four Caribbean islands. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414/180 "2012-07-07T15:41:06Z")
> [@PrettyVacant](#): > > Well then, work with ‘slave descendent’, as the OP invites you to do. > > No one is denying culture plays a part, and Jamaica may well have the highest cultural component - those eight slave descendents who comprised the Beijing 100m final came from the USA and four Caribbean islands. You might as well claim it is instead their mixed race heritage that has given them the edge then. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/critique-this-why-blacks-run-faster/627414.md?page=10)