# Crony Capitalism Sucks **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 23, 2011, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crony-capitalism-sucks/568688 "2011-01-23T20:48:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2011, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crony-capitalism-sucks/568688/41 "2011-01-24T16:20:28Z")
> [@Digital\_Stimulus](#): > > Should we jump to a general rant about nepotism? That’s a pretty objectionable aspect of capitalism also. It is an objectionable habit of human behaviour in the modern world deeply ingrained in all humans. Has fuck all to do with capitalism as such though. And unless Immelt somehow is related to your President (I shouldn’t think so), it’s not nepotism. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2011, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crony-capitalism-sucks/568688/42 "2011-01-24T16:55:50Z")
“The problem with lefties is that they don’t understand business!” “Well, OK, we’ll bring on a successful businessman to offer advice.” “Crony capitalism!” ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2011, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crony-capitalism-sucks/568688/43 "2011-01-24T16:59:01Z")
I think **China Guy** is on the money. I don’t see Immelt’s appointment as “jobs czar” as a crony capitalism issue. The issue for me (and many others) is the concern that the corporatist perspective he will likely bring to the table in dealing with our economic problems, a problem primarily of unemployment, is a perspective that is not only redundant (corporate interests are already well represented in the US government), but reflects an agenda at odds with the needs of ordinary Americans. ---
**Author:** ![Digital\_Stimulus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Digital\_Stimulus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Digital_Stimulus)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2011, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crony-capitalism-sucks/568688/44 "2011-01-24T17:01:48Z")
> [@wmfellows](#): > > And unless Immelt somehow is related to your President (I shouldn’t think so), it’s not nepotism. _Of course_ it isn’t nepotism. I was responding to **John Mace** ’s “_lead in_” comment. As I said, “_lead in to…what?_” I provided two (incredibly stupid but at least tangentially related) directions the discussion could go, primarily so that they could be dismissed while also eliciting a response. I then left it open-ended for **John Mace** ’s thoughts. They were his words, after all. I see two main possibilities for furtherance in the OP, the first of which is a discussion of whether this even qualifies as crony capitalism (as you have done, and which might actually be informative). The second concerns how this is _yet another_ example of Obama corrupting our system. By my lights (perhaps misconstrued), there’s a lot of the latter expressed in the OP, despite the fact that crony capitalism is a widespread occurrence (across governments in general). Yet my first post in this thread, pointing exactly to other instances of crony capitalism, was readily dismissed. If one is gonna bitch without partisan leanings (as **Sam Stone** has innocently proclaimed he’s doing), I’d expect additional fodder would be welcome… ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2011, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crony-capitalism-sucks/568688/45 "2011-01-24T17:16:52Z")
Ah right, fine then. ---
**Author:** ![Digital\_Stimulus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Digital\_Stimulus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Digital_Stimulus)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2011, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crony-capitalism-sucks/568688/46 "2011-01-24T17:17:56Z")
> [@Digital\_Stimulus](#): > > I was responding to **John Mace** ’s “_lead in_” comment. As I said, “_lead in to…what?_” Or, on second thought, I could be reading more into the phrase than was meant – i.e., “_lead in_” for direction of general discussion vs. “_lead in_” like “introductory sentence”. If the latter, please accept my apology, **John Mace** , for seeing something that wasn’t there. I have to admit your “for crying out loud” got under my skin and colored my subsequent responses. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2011, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crony-capitalism-sucks/568688/47 "2011-01-24T17:24:34Z")
Well, now, don’t chase him off, he’s our only extreme non-partisan. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2011, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crony-capitalism-sucks/568688/48 "2011-01-24T17:26:10Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No, no. To the contrary, I’d say that someone who believes that crony capitalism is a problem is out of luck, regardless of whether we elect a Democrat or a Republican. My cite is: 231 years of American history. Putting aside what happened back in 1780, answer this: do you feel that the Democrats and the Republicans are equal on the issue of crony capitalism in 2011? Or do you feel that one of the two big parties is more involved in crony capitalism? And if so, which party do you feel is more involved? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2011, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crony-capitalism-sucks/568688/49 "2011-01-24T17:31:18Z")
**Bricker!** Its a trap! ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2011, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crony-capitalism-sucks/568688/50 "2011-01-24T17:32:53Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Putting aside what happened back in 1780, answer this: do you feel that the Democrats and the Republicans are equal on the issue of crony capitalism in 2011? Or do you feel that one of the two big parties is more involved in crony capitalism? And if so, which party do you feel is more involved? At a national level, and recognizing that this is an unsubstantiated WAG, I’d have to give the nod to the GOP as the more or less undisputed leader in this arena. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2011, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crony-capitalism-sucks/568688/51 "2011-01-24T17:33:12Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > The issue for me (and many others) is the concern that the corporatist perspective he will likely bring to the table in dealing with our economic problems, a problem primarily of unemployment, is a perspective that is not only redundant (corporate interests are already well represented in the US government), but reflects an agenda at odds with the needs of ordinary Americans. He’s not exactly the only economic advisor. There’s something like 10 people in the panel he’s head of, and IIRC, there are two other similar panels just under the office of the President (wikipediaing, there’s the National Economic Council and the Council of Economic Advisers, the former of which is all academics and the latter appears to be headed by a Clinton era economic policy maker). Plus the VPs economic advisor. And those are just the people without any actual power. Add the Secretaries of Treasury, Commerce and Labor and all their assorted minions, and the President isn’t exactly lacking for people to give him varying advice on economic and jobs issues. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2011, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crony-capitalism-sucks/568688/52 "2011-01-24T17:33:49Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > And what makes you think this is the only instance of crony capitalism I’ve complained about? You might want to go back and see what I’ve had to say about Bush’s sucking up to large agribusinesses and the steel industry, my comments on protectionism, and other collusion between government and business. Selective memory there, **Sam**. When non-Republicans complained about crony-capitalism issues in the close ties between Cheney and Halliburton, for example, you routinely pooh-poohed the complaints as “conspiracy theories”. And this is exactly the same sort of thing, just on the other side of the aisle. You can’t point to any specific instance of actual misconduct on the part of Immelt as a government advisor (a far less influential position than Vice-President, by the way), or of the Obama administration in appointing him. All you’ve got are the same sort of vague unspecified-cronyism accusations that you tried to laugh out of court back when people were applying them to Dick Cheney. Mind you, I wouldn’t bet any money on the prediction that Immelt (or any other business leader) **won’t** use his advisor position to advance his private interests. I don’t approve of crony capitalism myself, as far as that goes. It’s just that I think you personally, **Sam** , have a pretty piss-poor record when it comes to opposing it. In short, my verdict on this thread is “Reasonably interesting and discussion-worthy Original Post from an Original Poster who on this issue happens to be a hypocrite with zero credibility.” ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2011, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crony-capitalism-sucks/568688/53 "2011-01-24T17:35:56Z")
Did anyone notice that the thread title was “Crony Capitalism Sucks”? It wasn’t “Obama engages in crony capitalism.” I used the Immelt example because it’s a lead news story, and because he is the current head of a major corporation while simultaneously heading a council that is supposed to make recommendations for government action to help business. There’s a _huge_ conflict of interest here. I’ve already said that I understand that this practice has been going on forever, and that both parties do it. I’ve criticized Bush for it in the past. As for my nefarious intent to lead this thread in the direction of Obama bashing, isn’t that just poisoning the well? If you’re always going to assume nefarious intent on the part of anyone posting anything that could possibly be construed as a criticism of the current president, then those of us who actually try to be fair might as well just stop, since we’re not going to get credit for it anyway. Where I was actually going with this thread was to suggest some concrete ideas for ending the practice. For example, I don’t think anyone who has fiduciary interest in a company should sit on a government panel that might make decisions affecting the bottom line of that company. Immelt should be asked to step down from GE if he wants to be on Obama’s team. Or better yet, Obama could have chosen Jack Welch for the job, who was a better CEO of GE anyway, but who now has no operational control over the company. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2011, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crony-capitalism-sucks/568688/54 "2011-01-24T17:41:10Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Selective memory there, **Sam**. When non-Republicans complained about crony-capitalism issues in the close ties between Cheney and Halliburton, for example, you routinely pooh-poohed the complaints as “conspiracy theories”. No, I pointed out that Cheney was forced to divest himself of any control in Halliburton and to put his investments in a blind trust. > [@](#): > > And this is exactly the same sort of thing, just on the other side of the aisle. You can’t point to any specific instance of actual misconduct on the part of Immelt as a government advisor (a far less influential position than Vice-President, by the way), or of the Obama administration in appointing him. All you’ve got are the same sort of vague unspecified-cronyism accusations that you tried to laugh out of court back when people were applying them to Dick Cheney. I just suggested in the last post that one solution to this problem would be for Immelt to do exactly what Cheney did. So, no hypocrisy there. And he’d have to work pretty fast for there to be actual examples of malfeasance in his position, since he was only appointed to it a couple of days ago. You’re really reaching now. > [@](#): > > Mind you, I wouldn’t bet any money on the prediction that Immelt (or any other business leader) **won’t** use his advisor position to advance his private interests. I don’t approve of crony capitalism myself, as far as that goes. It’s just that I think you personally, **Sam** , have a pretty piss-poor record when it comes to opposing it. > > In short, my verdict on this thread is “Reasonably interesting and discussion-worthy Original Post from an Original Poster who on this issue happens to be a hypocrite with zero credibility.” Oh, I see. So while you actually agree with me, you couldn’t resist dropping in just to shit on the thread and lay down another ad-hominem attack. Nice work. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2011, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crony-capitalism-sucks/568688/55 "2011-01-24T17:43:39Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > He’s not exactly the only economic advisor. There’s something like 10 people in the panel he’s head of, and IIRC, there are two other similar panels just under the office of the President. Plus the VPs economic advisor. And those are just the people without any actual power. Add the Secretaries of Treasury, Commerce and Labor and all their assorted minions, and the President isn’t exactly lacking for people to give him varying advice on economic and jobs issues. True, but I don’t get the sense that Obama is necessarily very savvy when it comes to economic issues. His basic plan was appointing all the Clinton guys and letting them dust off the mid 90s playbook, and everything I read about his economic advisors in his first two years suggests that it was mainly Summers, Geithner, and Bernanke who ran the show. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2011, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crony-capitalism-sucks/568688/56 "2011-01-24T17:47:21Z")
**Sam** , if I tried to drape the mantle of non-partisan objectivity about my manly shoulders, you would laugh with scorn. Rightly so. Defend what you believe, defending one’s dignity is for lesser minds than you or I. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2011, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crony-capitalism-sucks/568688/57 "2011-01-24T17:56:45Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > … > > Mind you, I wouldn’t bet any money on the prediction that Immelt (or any other business leader) **won’t** use his advisor position to advance his private interests. Why pray tell would the President of GE need to (or even given the public profile desire to) use such a position to advance private interests. I remain quite unclear as to why this is “crony capitalism” ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2011, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crony-capitalism-sucks/568688/58 "2011-01-24T18:06:58Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > So while you actually agree with me, you couldn’t resist dropping in just to shit on the thread and lay down another ad-hominem attack. Nice work. It’s not _ad hominem_, **Sam**. I’m not arguing that the concerns you raise are necessarily invalid just because you’re a hypocrite, which is how an _ad hominem_ argument works. I’m simply pointing out that you’re being a hypocrite on this issue, **even if** these particular concerns have some merit. In short, I’m not committing the _ad hominem_ fallacy of attacking the post by means of an unrelated criticism of the poster; I’m attacking the poster on his own merits, irrespective of the merits of the post. And that’s relevant because you yourself went along with the original diversion of this thread to the question of your hypocrisy, trying (unconvincingly) to argue that you’ve been even-handed on this issue. In fact, you **did** pooh-pooh concerns about ties between Cheney and Halliburton as “conspiracy theories”, repeatedly. And no, an elected official’s having put his company shares into a blind trust (even leaving aside the related issue of Cheney’s lavish additional options separate from the shares) is not the same thing as being devoid of industry ties that can influence the official in industry’s favor. The fact of the matter is, as other posters have pointed out, that in a political system where there are close involvements between government and big business personnel, the government is always going to be strongly influenced in favor of the businesses’ interests. And you, **Sam** , are always going to go on calling it “crony capitalism” when the government administration is Democratic, and calling it something more positive when the administration is Republican. (See, for example, [this post from 2004](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=4744907&postcount=4) where you explicitly CONTRADICTED the claim that the neoconservatives in power were “crony capitalists”.) ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2011, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crony-capitalism-sucks/568688/59 "2011-01-24T18:17:10Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > This isn’t partisan, and it’s not about me. Hilarious. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2011, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crony-capitalism-sucks/568688/60 "2011-01-24T18:28:37Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > … Where I was actually going with this thread was to suggest some concrete ideas for ending the practice. For example, I don’t think anyone who has fiduciary interest in a company should sit on a government panel that might make decisions affecting the bottom line of that company. Immelt should be asked to step down from GE if he wants to be on Obama’s team. Or better yet, Obama could have chosen Jack Welch for the job, who was a better CEO of GE anyway, but who now has no operational control over the company. Well these are reasonable ideas and concrete. Although you still haven’t convinced me there is any crony capitalism involved at all. (never mind I read things that suggest Jack old Man in the end created many of the issues his successors struggled with… > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Oh, I see. So while you actually agree with me, you couldn’t resist dropping in just to shit on the thread and lay down another ad-hominem attack. Nice work. You know you do winge on a lot about ad hominem. Get a spine. I’m largely on your side ideologically, but I also note you’ve got a bad habit of posing ideologically framed ‘facts’ and then crying when called on it. While your Leftists critics are often hypocritical in their banging on you, a bit of self reflection is in order mate. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crony-capitalism-sucks/568688.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crony-capitalism-sucks/568688.md?page=4)