# Crony Capitalism Sucks **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 23, 2011, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crony-capitalism-sucks/568688 "2011-01-23T20:48:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crony-capitalism-sucks/568688/81 "2011-01-25T18:31:44Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > I never claimed to be completely non-partisan. Obviously I prefer Republicans to Democrats overall. My claim is that I have been equally willing to criticize Republicans on this issue. Sam, we’ve gone through this before. You’re an interesting poster and debator on many topics. That said, when you start in on this “just a non-partisan observation” schtick, it sure comes off as disingenious and probably deliberate lipstick on a pig partisan propaganda. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crony-capitalism-sucks/568688/82 "2011-01-25T19:00:23Z")
I don’t like this move. All green job creation should be given to people who actually want green stuff first, instead of jobs first. Task of creating green jobs should be given over to Greenpeace and the Sierra Club ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crony-capitalism-sucks/568688/83 "2011-01-25T19:07:31Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > I don’t like this move. All green job creation should be given to people who actually want green stuff first, instead of jobs first. Task of creating green jobs should be given over to Greenpeace and the Sierra Club That would be fine if Greenpeace didn’t stand foursquare against the most fundamentally green move possible. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crony-capitalism-sucks/568688/84 "2011-01-25T19:48:12Z")
> [@villa](#): > > That would be fine if Greenpeace didn’t stand foursquare against the most fundamentally green move possible. But their _name_ is **Green** peace! ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crony-capitalism-sucks/568688/85 "2011-01-25T20:06:53Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > I don’t like this move. All green job creation should be given to people who actually want green stuff first, instead of jobs first. Task of creating green jobs should be given over to Greenpeace and the Sierra Club What possible reasoning leads you to think that people who “want green stuff” have the remotest competency in job creation - most notably in the hard and risk business of implementing new technologies? Wanting something is in no way synonymous with any capacity to effectively do something. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crony-capitalism-sucks/568688/86 "2011-01-25T20:29:48Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > I don’t like this move. All green job creation should be given to people who actually want green stuff first, instead of jobs first. Task of creating green jobs should be given over to Greenpeace and the Sierra Club How many factories does Greenpeace own? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crony-capitalism-sucks/568688/87 "2011-01-25T21:05:08Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > But their _name_ is **Green** peace! Good point. Let’s task them with bringing Peace to the Middle East. They can do it in a very green way, too! ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crony-capitalism-sucks/568688/88 "2011-01-25T21:23:54Z")
> [@wmfellows](#): > > What possible reasoning leads you to think that people who “want green stuff” have the remotest competency in job creation - most notably in the hard and risk business of implementing new technologies? > > Wanting something is in no way synonymous with any capacity to effectively do something. The priority is Green. The happy collateral is jobs. Don’t we almost always find the jobs guy to create a green job, instead of the other way around (using a greens guy to create jobs) > [@Miller](#): > > How many factories does Greenpeace own? I dunno, zero? That’s pretty green. They’d probably be heavy on creating jobs that doesn’t involve factories > [@John\_Mace](#): > > Good point. Let’s task them with bringing Peace to the Middle East. They can do it in a very green way, too! Green is first though 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crony-capitalism-sucks/568688/89 "2011-01-25T21:29:39Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > How many factories does Greenpeace own? > [@YogSosoth](#): > > I dunno, zero? That’s pretty green. Win. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crony-capitalism-sucks/568688/90 "2011-01-25T21:30:29Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > The priority is Green. The happy collateral is jobs. Don’t we almost always find the jobs guy to create a green job, instead of the other way around (using a greens guy to create jobs) Are you serious? I have to believe this is a joke. > [@](#): > > I dunno, zero? That’s pretty green. They’d probably be heavy on creating jobs that doesn’t involve factories I am hoping this is a joke. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crony-capitalism-sucks/568688/91 "2011-01-25T21:48:54Z")
Well, at least we are advancing on the “sneering at idealists” front. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crony-capitalism-sucks/568688/92 "2011-01-25T22:52:53Z")
I’d consider it more sneering at people who are willfully blind to an available solution - that of nuclear power. When idealists claim to support a certain goal, but turn up their noses at an available way of at least closing on that goal out of ridiculous reasons, then I think they deserve to be sneered at. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crony-capitalism-sucks/568688/93 "2011-01-25T22:58:48Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > I dunno, zero? That’s pretty green. They’d probably be heavy on creating jobs that doesn’t involve factories Yeah, I dunno. I think the market for handcrafted hemp hacky sacks is probably already pretty saturated. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crony-capitalism-sucks/568688/94 "2011-01-25T23:22:17Z")
Well if he is not trolling (in a light sense) for respones, then yes, I shall sneer. I am gob-smacked. Presuming you actually want green industry to succeed - and not end up being a self-discrediting laughingstock, it would behove one to have proper industrialists and engineers involved, with an understanding of deeper than “green is good, hey man the Sun is like free power…” ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crony-capitalism-sucks/568688/95 "2011-01-25T23:37:02Z")
> [@wmfellows](#): > > Well if he is not trolling (in a light sense) for respones, then yes, I shall sneer. I am gob-smacked. > > Presuming you actually want green industry to succeed - and not end up being a self-discrediting laughingstock, it would behove one to have proper industrialists and engineers involved, with an understanding of deeper than “green is good, hey man the Sun is like free power…” No, the sun is not green, it’s yellow, so shouldn’t work. Fuel should be generated by plants because I hate plants ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crony-capitalism-sucks/568688/96 "2011-01-25T23:52:13Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > No, the sun is not green, it’s yellow, so shouldn’t work. Fuel should be generated by plants because I hate plants Trolling then. That is a relief, I had almost thought there could really be someone so dim… ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2011, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crony-capitalism-sucks/568688/97 "2011-01-26T16:19:54Z")
> [@athelas](#): > > “Capitalism - truly free capitalism - is the only force capable of restraining big business.” -Milton Friedman, approximately. I’m pretty sure Milton Friedman was aware of trustbusting and AT&T. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2011, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crony-capitalism-sucks/568688/98 "2011-01-26T16:21:08Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > **Crony Capitalism Sucks** BTW, why the superfluous adjective in the thread title? ---
**Author:** ![Digital\_Stimulus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Digital\_Stimulus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Digital_Stimulus)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2011, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crony-capitalism-sucks/568688/99 "2011-01-26T16:24:01Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Your first post didn’t ask any questions - you simply aired your suspicion that I was being partisan. No, I also agreed that ‘crony capitalism’ sucks. I find the idea of “_It’s not what you know, it’s who you know_” abhorrent, even though it seems to be a cornerstone of both business and government operation. As to being partisan, we’ve covered it and I’ll not belabor the issue any further. > [@](#): > > I think the main one is that government and business should be kept at arm’s length, and that the potential for collusion for the benefit of a company at the expense of the citizenry at large is even greater when businesses collude with government than it is when they collude between themselves. Is this not the foundation of a commonly accepted definition of “_fascism_”? To wit: I think you’ll have difficulty finding anyone here who would disagree with that. Although I also think – and I’m sure you’ll agree – it is _necessarily_ a matter of degree (arm’s length, but no closer!). That is, when business does well, the economy does well, and the economy doing well is (often) indicative of good governance. Government and business should work in concert to some degree (have to, I suppose); as usual, the problem is determining where to draw the line. > [@](#): > > Anyone acting in an official capacity in the government should be recused from operational control of a company and should not have financial interest in the company being regulated…it seems like a good place to start would be to not allow actual current CEOs to also serve as advisers to a President. So, that’s where you’d draw the line (or a first approximation of the line, anyway). IMHO, even if it’s a start, it doesn’t go nearly far enough – any rule that would excuse the “[Cheney energy task force](http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/28/opinion/delusions-of-power.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm)” falls short. OTOH, your rule excludes the possibility that the person under consideration – Immelt, in this case – really might just be the best person for the job. (“Best” left undefined, as some nexus of qualifications, ability, opportunity, willingess, etc.) There are all sorts of questions raised to which I have few answers… Perhaps the line you draw is simply the brightest one available – has some effect, even if minor, while being easy to implement and enforce. Your historical question lies outside my realm of general knowledge, but I wouldn’t be surprised if there were some…umm, let’s call them “questionable”…situations in the robber-baron era – perhaps Andrew Mellon? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2011, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crony-capitalism-sucks/568688/100 "2011-01-26T17:37:07Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > You don’t describe an entire economy as ‘crony capitalism’. The vast majority of medium and small businesses operate in the market and are not colluding with government for advantage. Even very large companies like Apple or Microsoft operate in competitive markets where they sink or swim on the quality of their products. Even the vast majority of GE’s business is dictated by market forces. They regularly get beaten in the market by companies like Siemens and Rockwell. > > But there are cases where there is a very tight marriage between government and certain businesses, and government activities that tilt the playing field in favor of a constituent, contributor, lobbyist, or friend. That’s crony capitalism, and it happens in just about all countries in one degree or another. Like Halliburton and Cheney? Cause damn, if there were ever a war fought strictly for corporate interests, it was Iraq. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crony-capitalism-sucks/568688.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crony-capitalism-sucks/568688.md?page=6)