# Crop circle conundrum. **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 23, 2008, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crop-circle-conundrum/453951 "2008-06-23T18:15:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Testy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c37758/32.png) [@Testy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Testy)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2008, 10:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crop-circle-conundrum/453951/21 "2008-09-27T10:03:36Z")
Regarding why the crop circle makers don’t claim responsibility more often. My own thoughts are that the farmer will not be too pleased to find that someone has mashed a few acres of wheat or whatever and would be irate with whoever did it. The farmer is going to lose money and will hold someone responsible. Regards Testy ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2008, 10:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crop-circle-conundrum/453951/22 "2008-09-27T10:22:44Z")
This came from Wiki; > [@](#): > > Scientific analysis > > In 2002, Discovery Channel commissioned five aeronautics and astronautics students from MIT to create crop circles of their own. Discovery’s production team consulted with crop circle researcher Nancy Talbott, who provided them with three attributes that she believed set “real” crop circles apart from known man-made circles, such as those created by Doug Bower and Dave Chorley.[35] These criteria were: > > 1. Elongated apical plant stem nodes > 2. Expulsion cavities in the plant stems > 3. The presence of 10-50 micrometer diameter magnetized iron spheres in the soils, distributed linearly > > Over the course of a single night the team was able to create a stereotypical “man-made” circle that they then attempted to enhance using the three criteria. The team used lengths of rope to plot their design and trampled the wheat down in a spiral pattern using lengths of wooden board attached to loops of rope. To meet criterion 2, they constructed a portable microwave emitter, using it to superheat the moisture inside the corn stalks until it burst out as steam. To meet criterion 3, they built a device - dubbed the “Flammschmeisser” - that sprayed iron particles through a heated ring. However, the device proved to be too time consuming to use, and they were forced to finish the task by using a pyrotechnic charge to distribute the iron around the circle. The circle was later analyzed by graduate students from MIT, who declared it to be “on a par with any of the documented cases”. **Their conclusion was later questioned by Talbott, who noted that the team had only been able to recreate two of the three criteria. Talbott also expressed concerns that the iron particles were not distributed laterally. Furthermore, she felt that the team’s use of night vision headsets and other technologically advanced items would be out of reach for the average hoaxer.** [35] > > The creation of the circle was recorded and used in the Discovery channel documentary “Crop Circles: Mysteries in the Fields”. [my bolding] As regards the ‘responsibility’ factor, **Testy** ; some of these designs are works of art, so surely the publicity from confessing would be of some use to the creators? p.s. Note they only made a “stereotypical” circle. ---
**Author:** ![Testy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c37758/32.png) [@Testy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Testy)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2008, 10:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crop-circle-conundrum/453951/23 "2008-09-27T10:35:05Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > This came from Wiki; > > [my bolding] > > As regards the ‘responsibility’ factor, **Testy** ; some of these designs are works of art, so surely the publicity from confessing would be of some use to the creators? > > p.s. Note they only made a “stereotypical” circle. **Ivan** Some of them are indeed works of art. I love looking at the overhead pictures. OTOH, the really artistic and elaborate ones are probably not done without the farmer’s knowledge. I’d think he’d almost inevitably be in on the hoax. In which case, it is a lot better for him to find evidence of **aliens** ($$$) than to just say “Come look at my pretty crop circle.” Regards Testy ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2008, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crop-circle-conundrum/453951/24 "2008-09-27T10:41:50Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > I accept there is a great deal of BS on t’interweb, but sorting the wheat from the chaff is part of the fun. 🙂 To the point of crop circles having any sort of non-ordinary origin, it’s all chaff and no wheat for the critical thinker. Nothing to separate. Should some of the crop circle nonsense be wheat for you personally, though, enjoy your hobby. Just as with any other faith-based paradigm, no one will be able to persuade believers that every crop circle occurrence has an ordinary explanation. Cling to those bits and pieces so that you can continue to have fun with the topic. ---
**Author:** ![deanc2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/53a042/32.png) [@deanc2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/deanc2000)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2008, 10:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crop-circle-conundrum/453951/25 "2008-09-27T10:45:24Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > I accept there is a great deal of BS on t’interweb, but sorting the wheat from the chaff is part of the fun. 🙂 Isn’t there a Sarah Palin “Crop Circle” that I saw on one of the news channels? Now I know who the “aliens” are voting for! ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2008, 10:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crop-circle-conundrum/453951/26 "2008-09-27T10:47:26Z")
Fair point, **Testy**. Is anyone having a look at the section of the video at 1hr 16mins? I’d like to hear some comments on what that object might be. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2008, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crop-circle-conundrum/453951/27 "2008-09-27T11:07:34Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > To the point of crop circles having any sort of non-ordinary origin, it’s all chaff and no wheat for the critical thinker. Nothing to separate. > > Should some of the crop circle nonsense be wheat for you personally, though, enjoy your hobby. Just as with any other faith-based paradigm, no one will be able to persuade believers that every crop circle occurrence has an ordinary explanation. Cling to those bits and pieces so that you can continue to have fun with the topic. It’s not a hobby for me, **CP**. It just makes me curious when seemingly intelligent people are so convinced they are not fakes, and that in itself makes it an interesting phenomenon. And I’d still like an explanation for the flying object seen in the documentary, if anyone is interested? ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_fight\_the\_hypothetical](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/59ef9b/32.png) [@Don\_t\_fight\_the\_hypothetical](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_fight_the_hypothetical)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2008, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crop-circle-conundrum/453951/28 "2008-09-27T12:26:04Z")
[http://www.thatimagesite.com/image/1064](http://www.thatimagesite.com/image/1064) ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2008, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crop-circle-conundrum/453951/29 "2008-09-27T12:46:08Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > To the point of crop circles having any sort of non-ordinary origin, it’s all chaff and no wheat for the critical thinker. Nothing to separate. > > Should some of the crop circle nonsense be wheat for you personally, though, enjoy your hobby. Just as with any other faith-based paradigm, no one will be able to persuade believers that every crop circle occurrence has an ordinary explanation. Cling to those bits and pieces so that you can continue to have fun with the topic. Are you the official arbiter on what people are allowed to find interesting? What about the aesthetic value of crop circles? I find many to be quite beautiful. Nope. It’s been shown how people can create crop circles. So we should all forget about them & go concentrate on… Sports? Guns? Some other Manly Subject? Please, let us know how we’re allowed to spend our spare time! ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2008, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crop-circle-conundrum/453951/30 "2008-09-27T15:07:39Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > I’m sure you’d notice though, even if it was only the size of a hedgehog? Remember that you’ve got a good-sized board under your feet. If the animal didn’t make any or much noise in the process, you might not notice. Tilled cornfields have hard furrows of dirt in them, and you’re stomping down thick cornstalks, there will be lots of bumpy things under your feet that it’s your mission to squish flat, in the dark. My husband was trying to flush a pheasant out of brush; he knew it was there, and it was daylight. He only noticed it when he heard a little “erk” sound and discovered it under his boot. Oops. This was a hunter in daylight who wasn’t stomping up and down on a board, so I’m not surprised that if a creature doesn’t run when crop circle makers are working, it might get smushed. Then again, the same thing would happen on a much larger scale when the farmer brings out the big harvesting equipment to the field, and the tiller would get anything underground in its path as well. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2008, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crop-circle-conundrum/453951/31 "2008-09-27T15:43:41Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > Are you the official arbiter on what people are allowed to find interesting? What about the aesthetic value of crop circles? I find many to be quite beautiful. > > Nope. It’s been shown how people can create crop circles. So we should all forget about them & go concentrate on… Sports? Guns? Some other Manly Subject? > > Please, let us know how we’re allowed to spend our spare time! Yes, I am the official arbiter, but I was being entirely earnest. For faith-based believers everywhere the trick is to come up with an aspect for which there is not an obvious explanation, and by clinging to the unavailability of an explanation, one can maintain the faith, so to speak. “Sure, you explained that, but what about this?” I too find many of the crop circle designs to be magnificent and worthy of admiration on aesthetic value alone. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2008, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crop-circle-conundrum/453951/32 "2008-09-27T16:36:41Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > Yes, I am the official arbiter, but I was being entirely earnest. > For faith-based believers everywhere the trick is to come up with an aspect for which there is not an obvious explanation, and by clinging to the unavailability of an explanation, one can maintain the faith, so to speak. “Sure, you explained that, but what about this?” > > I too find many of the crop circle designs to be magnificent and worthy of admiration on aesthetic value alone. And do any of the more spectacular ones ever have an identifying signature, the sort of thing that most egotistical artists would be unable to help but leave somewhere within the design? ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2008, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crop-circle-conundrum/453951/33 "2008-09-27T16:57:59Z")
A teensy bit of critical thinking would answer most, maybe all of your questions, ivan. It would be pretty hard to continue to get attention for your “alien phenomena” if you went around claiming credit for all of them. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2008, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crop-circle-conundrum/453951/34 "2008-09-27T17:23:07Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > A teensy bit of critical thinking would answer most, maybe all of your questions, ivan. It would be pretty hard to continue to get attention for your “alien phenomena” if you went around claiming credit for all of them. You seem to be saying that the people creating them are also perpetuating the belief that they are of alien origin? Do you have any evidence of that? And do you mean critical thinking, or cynical thinking? Are you also saying that anyone with an interest in them beyond the aesthetic, is somehow deluded or guilty of not using critical thinking? ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2008, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crop-circle-conundrum/453951/35 "2008-09-27T17:38:47Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Are you also saying that anyone with an interest in them beyond the aesthetic, is somehow deluded or guilty of not using critical thinking? Yes. Once several artists began copping to them and demonstrating how they did them, you would have to suspend critical thinking to continue believing that they are supernatural or extraterrestrial in origin. Did you think I was going to have a problem saying that? ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Robson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gary_robson/32/3448_2.png) [@Gary\_Robson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Robson)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2008, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crop-circle-conundrum/453951/36 "2008-09-27T17:46:12Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > This came from Wiki; I am a supporter of Wikipedia (I assume that’s the Wiki you’re speaking of? You know there are thousands of wikis, don’t you?), but you have to realize that anyone (including you) could have written those paragraphs, so they don’t make a very convincing citation. > [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Their conclusion was later questioned by Talbott, who noted that the team had only been able to recreate two of the three criteria. Talbott also expressed concerns that the iron particles were not distributed laterally. Furthermore, she felt that the team’s use of night vision headsets and other technologically advanced items would be out of reach for the average hoaxer. > > [my bolding] So, on their first attempt, the team created the crop circles to spec, meeting two criteria exactly and partially meeting the third, and completing it in the alloted time frame. Sounds like the “couldn’t be made by humans” is pretty thoroughly debunked. And as for the night vision headsets, do you have any idea how cheap those have become? > [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > As regards the ‘responsibility’ factor, **Testy** ; some of these designs are works of art, so surely the publicity from confessing would be of some use to the creators Creating crop circles in someone else’s fields is illegal: you’re destroying private property. I can see why people would be reluctant to claim credit for it. They could end up paying restitution to the farmer or even doing jail time. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2008, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crop-circle-conundrum/453951/37 "2008-09-27T18:35:30Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > Yes. > > Once several artists began copping to them and demonstrating how they did them, you would have to suspend critical thinking to continue believing that they are supernatural or extraterrestrial in origin. Did you think I was going to have a problem saying that? Arrogance doesn’t surprise me anymore. I see it everywhere. My only suggestion is that some of them may be beyond our current understanding. You do know there was one depicted in a 17th century woodcut, don’t you? Any suggestions as to who the hoaxer was then. Drunken villagers, perhaps? > [@InvisibleWombat](#): > > I am a supporter of Wikipedia (I assume that’s the Wiki you’re speaking of? You know there are thousands of wikis, don’t you?), but you have to realize that anyone (including you) could have written those paragraphs, so they don’t make a very convincing citation. > > So, on their first attempt, the team created the crop circles to spec, meeting two criteria exactly and partially meeting the third, and completing it in the alloted time frame. Sounds like the “couldn’t be made by humans” is pretty thoroughly debunked. And as for the night vision headsets, do you have any idea how cheap those have become? Did you notice the mention of a stereotypical circle? Not a 300ft diameter complex design. Show me one reputable site detailing the creation of one of these. I’ll be even more impressed if you can show me one done under the cover of dark and finished without anybody noticing. > [@InvisibleWombat](#): > > Creating crop circles in someone else’s fields is illegal: you’re destroying private property. I can see why people would be reluctant to claim credit for it. They could end up paying restitution to the farmer or even doing jail time. For a decent crop-circle, I’m sure any farmer could recoup the damages by charging entrance to their land and providing refreshments. And have you heard the saying “All publicity is good publicity”? I’m sure an enterprising person could find a way to make an arrest worth the risk. Also, a signature wouldn’t have to be identifiable to anyone but the creators. So, do they exist? ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2008, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crop-circle-conundrum/453951/38 "2008-09-27T18:45:50Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Arrogance doesn’t surprise me anymore. I see it everywhere. My only suggestion is that some of them may be beyond our current understanding. You do know there was one depicted in a 17th century woodcut, don’t you? Any suggestions as to who the hoaxer was then. Drunken villagers, perhaps? But why would you think they are beyond our current understanding when they are clearly, demonstrably _not_ beyond our current understanding? What you’re saying is equivalent to saying you worked at GM and saw cars being built every day, but you think some cars may be beyond our current understanding. And no, I didn’t know there was one depicted in a 17th century woodcut, but it doesn’t surprise me. Lots of 17th century technology was beyond what it takes to make a crop circle; the trebuchet and the printing press are first to mind. How 'bout a picture of it, though, so we can decide if it’s even a crop circle or not? ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Robson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gary_robson/32/3448_2.png) [@Gary\_Robson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Robson)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2008, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crop-circle-conundrum/453951/39 "2008-09-27T18:54:59Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > My only suggestion is that some of them may be beyond our current understanding. If, by “our” current understanding, you mean “your” current understanding, then yes. I agree. > [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > You do know there was one depicted in a 17th century woodcut, don’t you? Any suggestions as to who the hoaxer was then. Drunken villagers, perhaps? I think his name was Evan, and he got a couple of his cousins to help. Seriously, **Ivan** , creating crop circles isn’t rocket science, and creating one that would fool your average 17th century farmer would be downright trivial. > [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Did you notice the mention of a stereotypical circle? Not a 300ft diameter complex design. Show me one reputable site detailing the creation of one of these. I’ll be even more impressed if you can show me one done under the cover of dark and finished without anybody noticing. Did you happen to notice the very first response in this thread? And who says it has to be under the cover of darkness? I could probably spend a week making a crop circle in some of the fields around here without anyone noticing. > [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > For a decent crop-circle, I’m sure any farmer could recoup the damages by charging entrance to their land and providing refreshments. And have you heard the saying “All publicity is good publicity”? I’m sure an enterprising person could find a way to make an arrest worth the risk. Also, a signature wouldn’t have to be identifiable to anyone but the creators. So, do they exist? The saying only matters if you’re seeking publicity. And I don’t suppose you’ve ever been a farmer, so let me walk you through this: Farming is a very tough and very busy living. You have to spend your days working, not sitting around waiting for tourists to show up so you can charge 'em a few bucks to see your crop circle. In most rural farm areas–at least the ones around here–I really can’t see how you could make a profit from it. Crop circles are old news. They’re easy to duplicate, and nobody’s ever presented the slightest bit of evidence that they were done by aliens. You’ve got a few weeks before the crops grow back, and no budget for marketing. How would you feel if someone created a “car circle” where he damaged your car in inexplicable ways, and then told you, “Don’t worry about the repair cost, **Ivan**. You can just lock the car in your garage and charge people to look at it. You’ll make so much money that it won’t matter if you’re left without the use of your car for a month.” We’re not talking about someone’s lawn here. We’re talking about their livelihood. A thousand dollars worth of crops is a big deal to most family farmers. Heck, a hundred dollars is significant to many of them. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2008, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crop-circle-conundrum/453951/40 "2008-09-27T19:03:12Z")
I am currently holding in my hands a most peculiar object. It’s made of two layers of something which almost exactly resembles mylarized plastic, formed into a sort of bag shape. It’s covered with strange markings, which, with a little imagination, seem to resemble the words “Doritos Hot Wings and Blue Cheese”. Clearly, we must ask ourselves how the aliens who obviously made this object learned how to make mylar, and when they learned to make marks resembling English words. Yes, yes, I know that it’s been documented that humans have made a few objects like this, but surely, they can’t all be hoaxes, can they? Out of all of the millions of so-called “crop bags” out there, some of them must be genuine, right? It’s just inconceivable that they could _all_ be human-made hoaxes. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crop-circle-conundrum/453951.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crop-circle-conundrum/453951.md?page=3)