# Crosswalk Empowerment
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crosswalk-empowerment/225010
**Category:** The BBQ Pit
**Created:** [January 17, 2004, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crosswalk-empowerment/225010 "2004-01-17T23:00:41Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 3
### Author:  [@dantheman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dantheman)
#### Post date: [January 22, 2004, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crosswalk-empowerment/225010/41 "2004-01-22T01:13:50Z")
> [@alice\_in\_wonderland](#):
>
> Sorry dude, no matter how many times I read your OP, I can’t help coming to the conclusing that you’re the asshole in this scenario.
>
> The pedestrian had enough time to approcah the crosswalk, heal his dog and step out into the crosswalk with you still stopping, albiet by jaming the breaks.
>
> While he was approaching and healing his dog (at the crosswalk) you should have been slowing down so you didn’t have to jam the breaks.
>
> Your OP reads as though you think because you were approaching the crosswalk at the same time as the pedestrian, and he wasn’t actually _IN_ the crosswalk you wern’t obligated to stop. Obviously that’s not legally true, but I don’t think it’s true from a social contract point of view either.
>
> Obviously leaping out in front of a moving vehicle is a dumb thing to do, but it doesn’t sound to me like that’s what this pedestrian did - it sounds like he assumed you would obey your half of the social contract by yielding to the person who had the right of way. That you chose not to doesn’t make him an asshole - it kinda makes you one.
Bullshit. The OP was in a 25 zone and was doing the speed limit. Why on Earth would he need to slow down if the pedestrian wasn’t even in the crosswalk? I refer you to this from the OP:
> [@](#):
>
> So now I’m very close to the crosswalk when this asshole pops off the side walk and out into the street, requiring hard braking.
So according to you, the mere presence of a pedestrian on a sidewalk means the driver must slow to a crawl? That’s insane.
Am I the only one who read the OP and deduced that the pedestrian entered the crosswalk only when the car was bearing down on it? And people still think the driver is at fault. I can’t figure out what else he could have done, and I stand by what I said - if the car has to brake hard to avoid a pedestrian AND the car was not traveling at an undue speed, then the pedestrian’s at fault, cross walk or no.
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### Author:  [@TVeblen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVeblen)
#### Post date: [January 22, 2004, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crosswalk-empowerment/225010/42 "2004-01-22T01:18:03Z")
Is there a great deal of variation in how crosswalks are marked? (This is an honest question, not a slam.) I’m used to pedestrian crosswalks marked with zebra stripings _and_ posted with a warning sign for motorists quite a few yareds in advance. In a posted crosswalk the driver must be prepared to stop if the pedestrian is standing on the curb or even heading directly toward it.
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### Author:  [@Lobsang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobsang)
#### Post date: [January 22, 2004, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crosswalk-empowerment/225010/43 "2004-01-22T01:18:18Z")
Why are many of the threads here in a different font and/or bolded?
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### Author:  [@Lobsang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobsang)
#### Post date: [January 22, 2004, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crosswalk-empowerment/225010/44 "2004-01-22T01:19:43Z")
> [@Lobsang](#):
>
> Why are many of the threads here in a different font and/or bolded?
Meant to say posts. not threads. It happened to mine too. Anyone else noticed it?
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### Author:  [@alice\_in\_wonderland](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alice_in_wonderland)
#### Post date: [January 22, 2004, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crosswalk-empowerment/225010/45 "2004-01-22T01:28:04Z")
> [@dantheman](#):
>
> Bullshit. The OP was in a 25 zone and was doing the speed limit. Why on Earth would he need to slow down if the pedestrian wasn’t even in the crosswalk?
Bullshit yourself. The pedestrian approached and stopped at the crosswalk before going accross. Why didn’t the OP start to slow when the pedestrian was _at the entrance to the crosswalk_? I would say standing at the entrance of the crosswalk is a pretty good indicator that one wants to enter it. Even if it does turn out the person chose that exact spot to have a rest, who cares? It takes an extra 30 seconds to slow down, yeild the right of way _as you are legally required to do_ and make sure. The OP didn’t mention anyone bleeding to death or having a heart attack - he should have slowed down.
> [@](#):
>
> So according to you, the mere presence of a pedestrian on a sidewalk means the driver must slow to a crawl? That’s insane.
No, it’s driving defensively. And I didn’t say crawl - 25 MPH is still pretty fast - you’d certainly injure someone if you hit them at that speed. In the US the onus is on the driver to slow and yield to pedestrians - why couldn’t he have slowed to 15 just to see what the guy was doing - that would have been the courtious thing to do.
> [@](#):
>
> Am I the only one who read the OP and deduced that the pedestrian entered the crosswalk only when the car was bearing down on it? And people still think the driver is at fault. I can’t figure out what else he could have done, and I stand by what I said - if the car has to brake hard to avoid a pedestrian AND the car was not traveling at an undue speed, then the pedestrian’s at fault, cross walk or no.
I read it as the pedestrian assumed the driver would stop, as he was legally required to do so, given the fact that the driver had enough time to note that the pedestrian was approaching, as well as enough time to note that at the entrance to the crosswalk the pedestrian healed his dog.
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### Author:  [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)
#### Post date: [January 22, 2004, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crosswalk-empowerment/225010/46 "2004-01-22T15:00:53Z")
**Alice** , I just wanted to say that your use of the word “healed” his dog made me smile - it sounds like we had Jesus taking his dog for a walk. The homonym you’re looking for here is “heeled”. Oh yeah, and they’re “brakes” on a car, not “breaks”.
That is all. Carry on.
(And Gaudere’s Law in 3…2…1…)
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### Author:  [@lno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lno)
#### Post date: [January 22, 2004, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crosswalk-empowerment/225010/47 "2004-01-22T15:22:17Z")
I was reading this thread yesterday afternoon and was preparing a response about pedestrians, drivers, and crosswalks in Minneapolis.
I never completed it, and left my office to begin the seven block walk to my car.
1. While crossing 2nd Ave S, with the light, a Econoline van tried to turn right from the center lane to get around a car waiting in the turn lane for pedestrians to cross. He braked hard a few feet from me.
2. While walking up 6th St between Marquette and Nicollet, a car pulling out of a parking ramp saw that traffic was light and accelerated over the sidewalk, not looking for pedestrians. The man in front of me had to jump back (and let loose a blistering stream of profanity at the car – the front seat passenger, at least, had the decency to look embarrassed)
3. While crossing 4th St at 1st Ave, again with the light, a grey Beetle tried to turn left from the center lane to get around another car waiting in the turn lane. Rather than braking, he honked and swerved around me. For a brief moment, I wished he had hit me enough to knock me down, because the Minneapolis Police 1st Precint is half a block from that spot.
So I reached my car, fuming to myself and promising a rant in this thread about the dumbasses who don’t notice crosswalks, or don’t notice pedestrians, or feel that even though they have a green light the “walk” signal can be ignored.
Then on my way to 394, on 3rd Ave N behind the Target Center, I saw a handful of pedestrians leaving the transit station and stopping at the crosswalk despite the warning lights flashing above. They wouldn’t make any motion towards the street and several cars in front of me blithely drove past. I had to come to a halt for them to begin walking across.
Dumbasses abound. There are pedestrian dumbasses who step into the crosswalk with the thought “I have the right of way, and any driver who looks pissed is the asshole.” There are vehicular dumbasses who think that they have the right of way by virtue of their car. There are pedestrians who are scared to exercise their right of way because of the vehicular dumbasses. And there are drivers who pretty much have to scream at the pedestrian “Just cross the goddamn street.”
I’m just gonna freakin’ take the skyways from now on.
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### Author:  [@lucwarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lucwarm)
#### Post date: [January 22, 2004, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crosswalk-empowerment/225010/48 "2004-01-22T18:48:53Z")
> [@dantheman](#):
>
> So according to you, the mere presence of a pedestrian on a sidewalk means the driver must slow to a crawl? That’s insane.
Do you want some extra straw with that strawman?
> [@dantheman](#):
>
> Am I the only one who read the OP and deduced that the pedestrian entered the crosswalk only when the car was bearing down on it?
No, you’re not the only one – I gathered that the pedestrian (foolishly) decided to insist on his rights and play chicken with the OP by stepping out in to the street.
> [@](#):
>
> I can’t figure out what else he could have done,
He could have started slowing down the moment he saw the pedestrian approaching the street at the crosswalk. Duh.
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### Author:  [@LordVor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LordVor)
#### Post date: [January 22, 2004, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crosswalk-empowerment/225010/49 "2004-01-22T19:13:25Z")
> [@Dog80](#):
>
> That of course implies that the pedestrian has to check for oncoming traffic, and decide whether the oncoming traffic can come to a halt in time.
Well, no, it says nothing of the sort. If there are cars who can’t halt in time and the pedestrian doesn’t check for them, the pedestrian is at fault. If there are cars who can halt in time (like the OP), and the pedestrian doesn’t check for them, the car is at fault if it hits the pedestrian. And it certainly doesn’t say anything about “making his intentions to cross clear”. Not even the OP suggested that the pedestrian didn’t have the full legal ability to do what the pedestrian did, just that the pedestrian was stupid for asserting his rights in this manner.
That said, I looked at **BigNik** ’s post more closely, and his knowledge of the law is mcuh, much farther off. **READ THE BLOODY LAW**. It’s very clear as to when pedestrians have the right of way, and by no means is it “always”. Hell, when I was in college I saw a guy crossing a street against the “don’t walk” sign while in a crosswalk get hit by a car. Driver got off, and the police gave the pedestrian a ticket for jaywalking, because the driver had the right of way.
Perhaps he’s thinking of insurance liability, which is a completely different thing from legality, and may have different rules of engagement?
-lv
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### Author:  [@dantheman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dantheman)
#### Post date: [January 22, 2004, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crosswalk-empowerment/225010/50 "2004-01-22T19:23:35Z")
> [@alice\_in\_wonderland](#):
>
> Bullshit yourself. The pedestrian approached and stopped at the crosswalk before going accross. Why didn’t the OP start to slow when the pedestrian was _at the entrance to the crosswalk_? I would say standing at the entrance of the crosswalk is a pretty good indicator that one wants to enter it. Even if it does turn out the person chose that exact spot to have a rest, who cares? It takes an extra 30 seconds to slow down, yeild the right of way _as you are legally required to do_ and make sure. The OP didn’t mention anyone bleeding to death or having a heart attack - he should have slowed down.
You’re not legally required to yield to a person who is NOT in the crosswalk. See, this is the part you’re missing. The mere presence of a pedestrian near a crosswalk does not give that person any unalienable rights. The driver must yield to a person _in_ the crosswalk.
It’s not the driver’s responsibility to see where all pedestrians are at all times and to sit around waiting for them to decide. It is the pedestrian’s responsibility to cross safely unless there’s a stop sign or a traffic light, neither of which were present in this case. Absent those two arbiters, the pedestrian absolutely, positively must ensure that it’s safe to cross before doing so, crosswalk or no crosswalk. As has been said a few times in this thread, the laws of physics are superseded by nothing, not even the rights of the pedestrian.
> [@](#):
>
> No, it’s driving defensively. And I didn’t say crawl - 25 MPH is still pretty fast - you’d certainly injure someone if you hit them at that speed. In the US the onus is on the driver to slow and yield to pedestrians - why couldn’t he have slowed to 15 just to see what the guy was doing - that would have been the courtious thing to do.
25 MPH is not fast. 25 MPH is slow. Maybe it’s fast in Canada.
The courteous thing to do would have been for the pedestrian to check to be sure he could cross SAFELY - not just for him, but for the driver. The OP had to slam on the brakes to avoid hitting the pedestrian. He was not speeding. There’s no reason in the world the pedestrian couldn’t have waited a nanosecond longer, and it’s a hell of lot easier for a ped to do so than for a car to stop.
> [@](#):
>
> I read it as the pedestrian assumed the driver would stop, as he was legally required to do so, given the fact that the driver had enough time to note that the pedestrian was approaching, as well as enough time to note that at the entrance to the crosswalk the pedestrian healed his dog.
Wrong. He was not legally required to do anything _until the pedestrian entered the crosswalk._. At THAT point, and that point alone, he must yield. The OP **did** , to the detriment of his brakes.
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### Author:  [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)
#### Post date: [January 23, 2004, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crosswalk-empowerment/225010/51 "2004-01-23T20:00:23Z")
Experiment: what happens if I begin this post with a \*\*?
At first I was inclined to excoriate the OP for not recognizing the pedestrian’s right of way: I’m generally all about favoring pedestrians over drivers, even when I’m in the car, for various reasons.
But then I noticed that he pointed out that he **did** yield right of way. So what it came down to was:
1. Driver didn’t think pedestrian was going to be in road.
2. Pedestrian rudely exercised his right-of-way.
3. Driver barely (and, let’s stipulate, rudely) recognized the right-of-way.
4. Pedestrian flipped driver off.
Thing is, the pedestrian got his legal right, and the stupidity of how he exercised it voided any right to its being recognized in a calm, safe fashion: he got the only recognition he could lay claim to. Why did he flip the driver off?
I could see myself doing the same thing, if I were distracted; rather than flipping the driver off, I’d hunch my head down, jog the rest of the way across the street, and give the driver an abashed grin and thankful wave.
Daniel
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### Author:  [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)
#### Post date: [January 24, 2004, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crosswalk-empowerment/225010/52 "2004-01-24T02:22:26Z")
The law posted only requires the driver stop for a pedestrian **in** the crosswalk. I suspect the clause about not running into a crosswalk when it is impossible for a driver to yield is to excuse drivers who were not able to stop. Though this might be nice for a court, a pdestrian assuming that a close driver is going to see him is asking to get zapped.
I taught my dog to sit at intersections - but I also never enter a crosswalk with him when cars are near. I doubt very much he will be able to calculate the stopping distance and level attentitiveness of a driver, so I’d rather he’s in the habit of not crossing whenever a car is anywhere close. (This is all just in case he ever runs away.) He does not try to cross now when a car is close, making him clearly smarter than some people. (He’s half border collie, so that ain’t surprising.)
Oh, and pedestrians get knocked off in San Francisco left and right. California drivers are pretty good about stopping, but it only takes one.
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### Author:  [@danceswithcats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/danceswithcats)
#### Post date: [January 24, 2004, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crosswalk-empowerment/225010/53 "2004-01-24T22:01:41Z")
By way of fuel taxes, registration fee, and operator license fee, I contribute to the construction and maintenace of roadways.
By way of municipal taxes, you pay for maintenance of sidewalks.
Let’s make a deal. I won’t drive on the sidewalk, and you stay the fuck out of the street when vehicles are approaching the crosswalk.
I don’t know when the rules of engagement changed, as I was brought up to look and ensure my own safety before attempting to cross a street. What’s next-some butt thinker crosses train tracks and blames CSX for his demise?
:dubious:
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### Author:  [@small\_but](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/small_but)
#### Post date: [January 24, 2004, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crosswalk-empowerment/225010/54 "2004-01-24T22:30:02Z")
> [@Ice Wolf](#):
>
> In New Zealand, there are three types of crossings. Zebra-style marked crossings with white lines on the road and a yellow sign mean that the pedestrian has right of way. Those with white lines and _no_ yellow sign mean the pedestrian _must_ give way to vehicles.
Umm **Ice Wolf**? I just had a look at the NZ road code, and there doesn’t seem to be any legal distinction between zebra crossings with, and zebra crossings without the orange flashing lights. Whenever there is a zebra crossing, the driver is obliged to give way.
Well, as far as I can tell anyway- if you know otherwise, I’d be interested to hear.
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### Author:  [@lucwarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lucwarm)
#### Post date: [January 24, 2004, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crosswalk-empowerment/225010/55 "2004-01-24T23:03:03Z")
> [@danceswithcats](#):
>
> Let’s make a deal. I won’t drive on the sidewalk, and you stay the fuck out of the street when vehicles are approaching the crosswalk.\*\*
Let’s make a deal: You slow down when it looks like somebody wants to cross using a crosswalk and pedestrians won’t give you the finger.
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### Author:  [@CanvasShoes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CanvasShoes)
#### Post date: [January 25, 2004, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crosswalk-empowerment/225010/56 "2004-01-25T03:01:50Z")
> [@Dog80](#):
>
> **…No pedestrian shall suddenly leave a
> curb or other place of safety and walk or run into the path of a
> vehicle which is so close that it is impossible for the driver
> to yield…**
> That of course implies that the pedestrian has to check for oncoming traffic, and decide whether the oncoming traffic can come to a halt in time.
>
> From the OP it is clear that the guy with the dog didn’t even turn his head to check for oncoming vehicles.
I’m with the OP. For those of you against. What was the OP supposed to do??? He was already traveling slowly, IIRC, he slowed when he saw the man approach the curb and stop, and as he began to proceed through the crosswalk THAT’S when the man suddenly decides to “take” his right of way.
Was the OP supposed to stop at the crosswalk “just in case”??? And wait on his highness to finish training his dog? (for the record, I used to walk my dog through a crosswalk area everday on the way to a trail, and I made sure I made clear eye contact with drivers turning right against the red, across the crosswalk, even when I DID have the “right of way”.
I didn’t stop, bend down, correct or talk to the dog and then merely step out without looking whether any cars were near me.
Along with the “right of way” comes responsibility too. The pedestrian in the OP was obviously not exercising any.
That the OP was forced to slam on his brakes at the last minute even though traveling at an already low speed indicates that the pedestrian used, not just very poor judgment, but some measure of rudeness, in suddenly hopping out into the crosswalk without looking.
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### Author:  [@danceswithcats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/danceswithcats)
#### Post date: [January 25, 2004, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crosswalk-empowerment/225010/57 "2004-01-25T05:15:33Z")
I don’t really give a rat’s ass whether or not you give me the finger, **lucwarm**. The issue is one of common sense, and as the OP stated, he was operating his vehicle in an appropriate manner-the pedestrian was behaving as an asshat. You can go through life expecting to be shielded from your own stupidity, or take responsibility for what you do, including not walking out in front of moving vehicles. My 8 year old daughter has been taught to look both ways and make sure cars are stopped before venturing into a roadway. What part of that concept is lost on you?
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### Author:  [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)
#### Post date: [January 25, 2004, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crosswalk-empowerment/225010/58 "2004-01-25T05:49:02Z")
I find it hard to believe that everyone in here who is calling the OP a jerk slows down (from 25 to some arbitrarially ‘safer’ speed) whenever they come to a crosswalk with pedestrains standing or moving on the sidewalk off of the road.
Unless there is a stop sign, a driver has no obligation to come to a stop at a crosswalk to allow pedestrains to enter said crosswalk, and in fact I have _never_ seen this happen before. So, at some point, assuming there is no person in the crosswalk, a car will have to drive over the crosswalk at some speed.
At some point in this whole situation, there comes a time when a pedestrian stepping out into the crosswalk is being stupid and endangering his or her own life, through no fault of the driver. Where exactly this point is, and what exactly is an appropriate speed with which to drive over a crosswalk is up for debate, but the fact that a pedestrian can in fact step into a crosswalk at an inappropriate time is hardly questionable.
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### Author:  [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)
#### Post date: [January 25, 2004, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crosswalk-empowerment/225010/59 "2004-01-25T05:49:55Z")
Don’t bother, for The Great and Powerful **lucwarm** has spoken and there is no man behind the curtain. At least he’s being civil so far.
**lucwarm** , the answer to your question is every single time you posted except for some of your responses to me. Just MHO, of course.
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### Author:  [@bannerrefugee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bannerrefugee)
#### Post date: [January 26, 2004, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crosswalk-empowerment/225010/60 "2004-01-26T01:51:19Z")
> [@county](#):
>
> We’ve been down this road before. You stopped, it was your fault. All you did was encourage this kind of behavior. You were in 1500 to 3000 lbs of steel, you had the right of way by virtue of your size and invulnerability in this situation, and you wimped out and stood on the brakes.
>
> As long as drivers continue to stop, pedestrians will continue to act like that.
As long as pedestrian gun owners continue to stop, drivers will continue to act like that. Once the drivers realize they will get blown away, then they will stop.
The same goes for those silly motorcyclists. Don’t they know they will get smashed flat if they don’t get out of the way FAST! My weapon is way more more deadly so I HAVE THE RIGHT OF WAY!!!
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