From my experience, it’s just how it always was. I don’t recall a time when I didn’t know the story. I do know I knew it well enough that I was able to do my confirmation to receive my first communion at around 6 or 7. Admittedly, I’m sure when I was young they didn’t go into gruesome detail, but I definitely knew he was whipped, tortured, the brutality of crucifixion.
For an odd analogy, it’s sort of like, having been born in the 80s, asking me how shocked I was when I found out Vader was Luke’s dad. I’m sure to everyone who first found that out watching the film was shocked and think it spoils the films. For me, I don’t even remember learning that, I was watching those films as a little kid, so I never had that shock. That’s just the way it was.
Really, went we get down to it, it seems to me that any of the various grotesqueries of various religions, history, mythologies, stories, etc. all lose most or all of their punch if we’re exposed to them at a young enough age. Consider so many of the things we learn about American history, like slavery for instance, and how horrifying they really are and yet I remember learning that at a young age and didn’t really grasp that, despite a field trip to a plantation, reading about it, seeing movies, whatever until I was older, it was a much more gradual thing than that might be to someone who had never heard about it then learned how it was practiced.
Just echoing everyone else but, growing up Catholic, crucifixes were a common enough part of the decor that there was no singular moment of realization. At some point you learned that the guy was Jesus, at some point you learned that he was on the cross so we could go to Heaven, you learn the Apostle’s Creed – “Under Pontius Pilate, He was crucified, died and was buried” – I think I was in my teens, perhaps late teens, before I really understood what crucifixion entailed beyond “You get hung on a cross and you die.”
A friend of mine taught Sunday School back in the day and she said the materials for the week of Easter were more about the resurrection aspect and the general idea of rebirth, spring, bunnies & ducklings, etc. Stuff more palatable for the six year old child.
First see it? Being raised Catholic, I’ve seen it all my like. There were crucifixes in homes and a huge number of them in every Church. They were part of the background I grew up in. You might as well ask me what the taste of water is, or the smell of air. You only notice them when they’ve been adulterated, otherwise, they’re an integral part of the background.
in fact, I suspect that sort of immersive experience makes it difficult for raised-as-Christians to see the imagery as outsiders do.
Well, it’s a bit of an issue if you’re not even ever going to suffer pain or die in the ordinary way, isn’t it, to deliberately make yourself become someone who can just in order to be tortured to death? (Also, one “s”, two "r"s please.)
Was Lutheran as a very young child, so the fact of it was always there. Just a slow building of the realization of the horror of it all. It was presented to us very much as Marion Wormer describes: the parallel with the old tradition as an example, and the focus on it happening for the purpose of saving people from their sinful natures.
That said, it was actually always very emotionally traumatizing for me - our area was very big on the dramatic “Passion Plays” of the life of Christ where it was made brutally clear how dehumanizing and terrible that process was. It was a yearly ordeal, and I hated going, but couldn’t admit it to anyone because it was supposed to be uplifting and cathartic (and it was enough work getting out of BEING in the whole damn performance in the first place).
It was never as bad as down in South America where they really get into it with actual people being hung on crosses, but it was purposefully done to be overdramatized in the hopes of converting people through excess of emotional response.
I still have lots of hangups about guilt and emotional manipulation and personal responsibility that I lay entirely at the foot of that cross.
This, pretty much. I went to Catholic elementary school, and it’s just always there. During Easter week, we were taken to the church and went through all the stations of the Cross, all of which were illustrated in sculptures on the church walls. You know the drill if you went to Catholic school – Jesus is condemned to death, Jesus carries his cross, Jesus falls the first time, then (skipping a few) Jesus falls the third time, Jesus is nailed to the cross, etc.
I don’t remember it freaking me out, and I don’t remember any other children getting freaked out, either.
Now, making your first confession – that will freak you out.
Thanks for everyone’s responses so far. Very enlightening.
Now, confession. I never thought about that. Judaism does not have the booth thing with the priest, rather we have a whole holiday (Yom Kippur) devoted to asking for forgiveness and confession of one’s faults and sins. But there’s no overt shaming involved. At my temple, one of our traditions is that we symbolically write our sins in washable marker on laminated paper and watch them wash away in water. We don’t show anyone, and it’s not like someone is clamoring to hear your darkest secrets. It’s between you and God, basically.
But confession as I understand it for Catholics seems totally shame-based. Another person who is not God gets to judge you. Do priests secretly enjoy the thrill of having access to peoples’ private lives? What purpose does it fulfill that confessing your sins alone in your room does not? How can people agree on how many “Hail Marys” are necessary to atone for your sins? What if you think it’s worth three but the priest thinks it’s worth 100? Is the human element so necessary to assuage human guilt?
Just rambling. But confession is an interesting topic…like a way of using shame to cement the church’s place in someone’s life.
For me - the sacrifice of Isaac - well, the important part of that story was that he wasn’t actually sacrificed. It was only as an adult that the notion his dad was willing to sacrifice his kid sounded bizzare and horrible.
The plagues - that’s sorta in the background, mixed in with all the other plagues. Didn’t make a big impression. I was more grossed out by the boils and lice. :eek:
We didn’t really learn about Masada as kids - it’s more a history thing, than a religion thing.
Really, the most frightening thing we learned as Jewish kids wasn’t the religious mythology - it was the history. I went to a religious school (Reform Judaism) in the early 1970s, and the thing that left the biggest impression on me was when a Rabbi who was a Holocaust survivor visited the class, to talk about his experiences. The notion that, relatively recently - in this guy’s lifetime, in fact - a whole nation (and an advanced one too) basically devoted itself to murdering as many of “us” as they could catch - and largely succeeded - left a big impression.
Not at all, it’s a pri… shit, you just gave me an argument against letting women become priests: it’s a priest, not your mother!(Or mine)
The purpose of confessing with the aid of a priest instead of doing an act of contrition is multiple, but it boils down to getting advice on how to evaluate what is a sin and what is not (one of the faults of some people is that they’ll turn “I saw two doves having sex! And I didn’t at first realize what they were doing so until I did I stared!” into a sin; others see no problem in coveting their neighbor’s cow because hey, it ain’t his ass), and if it is how serious, and in figuring out what can you do to avoid it happening again.
Bad confessions IME boiled down to priests who yes, took an unacceptable pleasure in prodding where they really shouldn’t have. A good one leaves you feeling better. It’s like therapists or personal counselors, but free.
I am not Catholic, but I do have someone I tend to consider a “confessor” (informally). Priests don’t necessarily judge the penitent, they listen, and offer ways for forgiveness. I think having someone actually hear you, and then tell you it’s ok and you are forgiven is far more of a removal of burden than just confessing alone in a room (regardless of how much faith we have, we all have some doubts of whether God is really listening to everything - heck, Mother Teresa was racked by them).
In addition: up until about 1970, confession was done in a darkened, soundproofed booth (a switch in the kneeler lit up a light outside the door letting everyone know someone was in there [fill in your own favorite Catholic-school-boy prank]), around that time, a new method was concocted: a big, bright room where you would say your sins out loud to the faddah–you could face him, or have back-to-back confession. Everyone else feel free to throw in your perceptions of this, needless to say, I NEVER took advantage of this. To encourage its use, it was the only confessional available on some occasions, so you’d have to come back some other time if that method wasn’t cool for you–made lotsa parents happy. :rolleyes:
As far as, “Do priests secretly enjoy the thrill of having access to peoples’ private lives?” it’s quite the opposite: imagine YOU having to listen to “I punched my sister when no one else was looking” 10,000 times a year! Sacrificial wine, anyone?
I never had an issue with confession. Granted, all my sins were pretty penny-ante stuff anyway so it’s not as though I was confessing to murdering my grandmother and stealing her money or something. I never felt especially judged either beyond the priest needing to consider my sins to recommend a penance. But nothing like “Look at this guy, admitting to being jealous of his friend and lying about eating all the pie…”
There’s no shaming involved in confession (or, as it’s properly known, the Sacrament of Reconciliation). For one thing, unless someone chooses to confess face-to-face to the priest, the priest doesn’t know who you are and you don’t know who he is. And what happens in the confessional is absolutely, no exceptions whatsoever, secret. It can never, ever, ever, no matter what the circumstances, be disclosed by the priest who heard the confession. Not if the priest has a gun to his head. Not for any reason.
The priest is a counselor, who is there to help you with your examination of conscience, so that you make a valid confession. He may grant or withhold absolution, or impose a penance as he sees fit. Yes, there are the “say five Hail Marys” penances, but there are also penances where the penitent, as a condition of absolution, may be directed to turn himself into the civil authorities, if a serious crime has been committed.
The priest doesn’t forgive the sins of the penitent, by the way – God forgives sin, through the priest.
Edit – I seem to remember, and Wikipedia confirms (whether or not reliably I’m not sure) that the priest cannot make surrender to civil authorities a condition of absolution. I guess that would constitute a breaking of the seal?
It is absolutely not shame-based and the priest doesn’t get a thrill from it. I have a hard time going because I am uncomfortable in one-on-one social interaction anyway, so I would go to a priest who doesn’t know me, but that’s not because I think he is judging me. It’s an opportunity to reconcile with God and strive to do better. The priest is representing Christ (“whose since you forgive are forgiven”) and absolving you in His name. As far as the prayers afterward, there isn’t a magic number; it’s just a sufficient time to reflect on what you will be trying to do better at.
It was no big deal to me. (Protestant here, if it matters).
Look at most children’s stories and you actually see a lot of pretty horrific violence. Hansel and Gretel shove the witch into the oven. Red Riding Hood’s grandmother is eaten by a wolf, and the wolf is later killed by a woodsman.
Young kids seem to take their cues for reacting more from the adults around them than from the actual content. If you’re laughing about how the witch just got burned alive, they are too. If you are panicked and crying about 9/11, they are too. If you present the crucifixion as a solemn religious idea, they take it as that.
Of course, I never saw anything like the movie Passion of the Christ as a kid. That would be too much for a kid. But the basic story as presented in the Bible is not a big deal for kids.
I agree with your point about kids reacting to what they hear and see adults doing. However, there is a point at which our visceral revulsion and disgust kicks in, when you hear and imagine the gory details, that no religious imagery can sweeten or cover up. By that time, if you’re an adult, you have learned how to reconcile that revulsion with your own personal belief.
Is absolution the same as forgiveness? Is the priest playing God if they have the power to grant or withhold absolution or impose a penance as he sees fit? The withholding of absolution IMHO can really fuck up someone’s mental state. They go to confession hoping to be absolved and, nope, they didn’t confess well enough? Is absolution predicated on the “truthfulness” or “sincerity” of the person’s confession? Is that a subjective measure? Does that change the dynamic between priest and penitent?
Also, is the Catholic method of confession used outside of Catholicism, in other religions? If not, why not? Why don’t other religions adopt this practice? I don’t take issue with the idea of talking to a clergy member about your own issues. But the ritual surrounding confession (in a box, “forgive me father for I have sinned”, etc.) makes me think it’s more for ritual’s sake than of any practical value in its current manifestation.
The fact that it counts as a Sacrament means the church places special importance on it. Why is this institution so important in Catholicism and not in other religions? IMHO it’s a power play. By making confession a holy and expected thing, they make your spiritual health contingent on the priest (and by extension, the church), which means, “uh oh, if i don’t support my church, my spiritual health is at risk.”
Catholics, please tell me what I’m missing. Am I completely off base?
BTW, these responses are really interesting. Thank you all.