# Crucifixion: Why the Crossbar? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 27, 2017, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crucifixion-why-the-crossbar/802901 "2017-11-27T23:52:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crucifixion-why-the-crossbar/802901/41 "2017-12-06T21:23:50Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Did the symbols spring forth from the facts, or were the facts massaged to fit the symbols? Indeed: man creates God in his own image. A tree, or at least a fortified upright pole makes more sense than carrying the whole structure. I read it as Jesus carried the cross—short for cross piece—which would likely have been about six feet of lumber anyway, wide enough to accommodate a man’s arm span from fingertip to fingertip. ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crucifixion-why-the-crossbar/802901/42 "2017-12-06T21:25:52Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > The earliest depiction of Jesus’ crucifixion is from the 2nd Century AD, and shows the crosspiece. [Cite](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifixion_in_the_arts). > > Crucifixion is not a common theme in Christian art before Constantine adopted the religion. So it seems the fact came before the symbol. > > Regards, > > Shodan Or the “fact” was created to suit the symbol. Apparently early Christians had the body of a lamb up there as opposed to a person. The paschal lamb. ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crucifixion-why-the-crossbar/802901/43 "2017-12-06T21:32:20Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > Oh, I don’t doubt there was a real preacher named Jesus who wandered Judea until he was crucified by the Romans. He appealed to enough followers to have a continual following even after he was gone. St. Paul especially, made up a lot of what is the current Christianity and pushed on the gentiles. Then the cult took off, and writers embellished and altered and fabricated on existing epistles and gospels to make Jesus sound more supernaturally awe-inspiring and to push their version of doctrine. The councils around 300AD put their foot down and got rid of the stupider embellishments, like the Infancy apocrypha where Jesus as a child zaps annoying kids and his teacher… > > But very very likely there was a Jesus, he did some of the things in the gospels, and was crucified by the Romans because it seemed he was challenging the established order. > > In a land where wood was relatively valuable, and finished wood more so, odds are the cross components were recycled as long as they could hold a nail. > > _“Always look on the bright side of life…”_ Have you ever read Lamb: the Gospel According to Biff, Christ’s Childhood Pal by Christopher Moore? I bet you’d enjoy it. It covers the lost years where JC was learning about the world. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crucifixion-why-the-crossbar/802901/44 "2017-12-06T21:38:03Z")
The Infancy Gospel of Thomas explains some of the missing years. It didn’t make the cut to the NT. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crucifixion-why-the-crossbar/802901/45 "2017-12-06T21:42:06Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > What of the ankh, the ndj and the nfr? The letter Taw? Could any of these have influenced the shape of the christian symbol? Could have? I suppose so. Occam’s Razor would suggest that the cross was shaped like a cross because that’s how crosses were shaped. The graffito I cited above was meant to be insulting - I don’t see why they would be influenced by ankhs, or why a Roman would know what a Taw looked like. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crucifixion-why-the-crossbar/802901/46 "2017-12-06T21:45:04Z")
> [@Biffster](#): > > Or the “fact” was created to suit the symbol. Apparently early Christians had the body of a lamb up there as opposed to a person. The paschal lamb. If you look at the graffito as cited, you will see that it isn’t a lamb - it is a donkey’s head. I very much doubt if the one who drew it was a Christian. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crucifixion-why-the-crossbar/802901/47 "2017-12-06T22:23:02Z")
While it’s true the Romans used different means of crucifixion, there’s some (admittedly grisly) logic in having a crossbeam. Fatal cardiac arrhythmias can be caused by the build-up of CO2 in the blood. As I understand it, extending arms on a crossbeam makes it harder to exhale, thereby increasing blood CO2 levels that could cause fatal arrhythmias. It also most likely caused dislocation of the shoulders, adding to the _excruciating_ pain of the experience. And according to [this](http://www.newsweek.com/how-romans-used-crucifixion-including-jesus-political-weapon-318934) Newsweek article and this [National Geographic article](http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/killing-jesus/articles/how-did-crucifixion-kill-a-person/)–perhaps more credible sources than the History Channel- whippings were common before crucifixions. As the Newsweek article article points out, the remains of a crucified person discovered in 1968 showed the feet were nailed directly to the cross. Sometimes a sedile–the foot platform–was used n a means of prolonging death by giving the victim something to push against to make exhalation easier–until exhaustion took over. The NG article says the sedile was unlikely in the case of Jesus or other Jewish dissidents since Jewish scriptures forbade leaving the condemned on the cross overnight. This is conjecture on my part, but perhaps steps were taken to hasten the deaths of Jewish dissidents to ensure their death before nightfall. Just a guess. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2017, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crucifixion-why-the-crossbar/802901/48 "2017-12-07T01:38:53Z")
I’ve wondered if it has anything to do with the Greek letter Chi, which resembles an X. It is the first letter of Christos, written in Greek, and thus X is sometimes used as an abbreviation for Christ. What do you know, his name can be written as a cross, and he died on a cross. Any significance to that? ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2017, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crucifixion-why-the-crossbar/802901/49 "2017-12-07T01:51:00Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > I’ve wondered if it has anything to do with the Greek letter Chi, which resembles an X. It is the first letter of Christos, written in Greek, and thus X is sometimes used as an abbreviation for Christ. What do you know, his name can be written as a cross, and he died on a cross. Any significance to that? _Jesus_ and \*cross \*both have 5 letters, and more than one S!!! Any significance to that? ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2017, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crucifixion-why-the-crossbar/802901/50 "2017-12-07T03:51:36Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > I’ve wondered if it has anything to do with the Greek letter Chi, which resembles an X. It is the first letter of Christos, written in Greek, and thus X is sometimes used as an abbreviation for Christ. What do you know, his name can be written as a cross, and he died on a cross. Any significance to that? John Shelby Spong discussed the significance of the divine (vertical axis) intersecting the earthly world (horizontal axis) and THAT being the real meaning behind the cross. The story of the crucifixion of god’s son may have been entirely fabricated because it has a mythological ring to it. It’s far more plausible that some writers sat down one day and said, hey, wouldn’t it be something if out of the thousands of crucifixions the Romans carried out, one of the victims actually came back to life? Now that would be a memorable story. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2017, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crucifixion-why-the-crossbar/802901/51 "2017-12-07T04:56:12Z")
Read that. It was a “good” book. Best seller I heard. ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2017, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crucifixion-why-the-crossbar/802901/52 "2017-12-07T05:37:13Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > Ignotus has totally **nailed** the answer. This has gotta be the most appropriate pun in Sdope history! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2017, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crucifixion-why-the-crossbar/802901/53 "2017-12-07T15:23:40Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > _Jesus_ and \*cross \*both have 5 letters, and more than one S!!! Any significance to that? Only if the original was written in modern English. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2017, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crucifixion-why-the-crossbar/802901/54 "2017-12-07T15:42:50Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > It seems to me that it would make displaying people better, which is kinda the point of doing this in public. Look at these guys: if you do what they did, we’ll do this to you, too. … I would tend to agree with this. Also the crossbar would only be seen when it was in use, while the uncrossbarred pole would server as a a statement of authority that could be imposed, that even though it is not active, it could be made so. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2017, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crucifixion-why-the-crossbar/802901/55 "2017-12-07T16:16:11Z")
Well, at least it gets you out in the open air. Crucifixion is a doddle. ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2017, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crucifixion-why-the-crossbar/802901/56 "2017-12-07T17:56:01Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Well, at least it gets you out in the open air. > > Crucifixion is a doddle. Weirdo! ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crucifixion-why-the-crossbar/802901/57 "2017-12-08T01:33:54Z")
In the end it’s just that they knew how to have a good time. ---
**Author:** ![allpurpose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac8455/32.png) [@allpurpose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/allpurpose)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crucifixion-why-the-crossbar/802901/58 "2017-12-08T16:43:38Z")
I don’t really know the answer to the question, but in a completely unrelated question, had Jesus died as a result of slipping on a banana peel and breaking his neck would Christians instead wear banana peels in lieu of crosses? ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crucifixion-why-the-crossbar/802901/59 "2017-12-08T17:11:26Z")
> [@allpurpose](#): > > I don’t really know the answer to the question, but in a completely unrelated question, had Jesus died as a result of slipping on a banana peel and breaking his neck would Christians instead wear banana peels in lieu of crosses? I know it’s sarcastic, but… We do see depictions in various medieval churches of St. Andrew’s cross (X-shaped) and St. Catherine’s wheel (she was allegedly martyred on a wheel). St. Sebastian was shot with arrows and the common depiction of him was with an arrow or two sticking out of his torso, and of course Joan of Arc is commonly depicted burning tied to a stake. So I’m going out on a limb here and say If Jesus had had those minions running around him dropping banana peels… Maybe. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crucifixion-why-the-crossbar/802901/60 "2017-12-08T19:47:34Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > Gotta love those Romans! Always thinking of the victim. 🙂 Terrific race, the Romans. Terrific. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crucifixion-why-the-crossbar/802901.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crucifixion-why-the-crossbar/802901.md?page=4)