# Crucifixion **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [April 11, 2008, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crucifixion/444893 "2008-04-11T14:06:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Timothy\_Krieger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9de0a6/32.png) [@Timothy\_Krieger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Timothy_Krieger)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2008, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crucifixion/444893/1 "2008-04-11T14:06:48Z")
Dear Cecil, I’m surprised that you didn’t cite the article, “On the Physical Death of Jesus Christ,” by William Edwards, Wesley Gabel, and Floyd Hosmer, in the Journal of the American Medical Association of March 21, 1986. Their conclusion (in the case of Jesus’ crucifixion) is that “it remains unsettled whether Jesus died of cardiac rupture or of cardiorespiratory failure.” They didn’t mention, however, that, according to longstanding medical procedure, the ultimate physical cause of every human death is lack of oxygen to the brain. TK ---
**Author:** ![Khadaji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Khadaji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khadaji)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2008, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crucifixion/444893/2 "2008-04-11T15:24:44Z")
Hi Timothy. Is [this](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/080411.html) the article you are referring to? ---
**Author:** ![Baker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bb73d2/32.png) [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2008, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crucifixion/444893/3 "2008-04-11T20:18:37Z")
My money is on blood loss, in the death of Jesus. Whatever it was, it was unusually fast, because when Joseph of Arimathea went to Pilate to ask for the body Pilate was surprised, as in "you mean he’s dead _already_?’ ---
**Author:** ![Alex\_Dubinsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dbc845/32.png) [@Alex\_Dubinsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alex_Dubinsky)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2008, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crucifixion/444893/4 "2008-04-11T21:28:15Z")
[QUOTE=Baker] My money is on blood loss, in the death of Jesus. Whatever it was, it was unusually fast, because when Joseph of Arimathea went to Pilate to ask for the body Pilate was surprised, as in "you mean he’s dead _already_?’ [/QUOTE] Pst. If I had someone suffer for my sins, I’d expect them to at least take the time to do it right. ---
**Author:** ![Lanzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/74df32/32.png) [@Lanzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lanzy)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2008, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crucifixion/444893/5 "2008-04-11T21:43:28Z")
Have “we” gained some proof there was a crucifixion? cite besides the bible? ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2008, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crucifixion/444893/6 "2008-04-11T22:47:23Z")
Such early outside accounts of Christianity as we possess do not seem to doubt it. In general, those who have denied it through the centuries have denied it because it went against their own religious prejudices, _ee.g.,_ the Gnostic cults, who denied that anyone so holy as Jesus could possibly have such a dirty, icky thing as a human body to begin with, and the Jehovah’s Witnesses, whose objections are ultimately based on a naïve translation. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2008, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crucifixion/444893/7 "2008-04-12T01:14:57Z")
[QUOTE=Timothy Krieger] They didn’t mention, however, that, according to longstanding medical procedure, the ultimate physical cause of every human death is lack of oxygen to the brain. [/QUOTE] Why would they? Assuming this is an actual technical definition of death, which is doubtful, the truism that every death has this cause has no explanatory power. Why waste time with what becomes a meaningless redundancy? ---
**Author:** ![Alex\_Dubinsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dbc845/32.png) [@Alex\_Dubinsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alex_Dubinsky)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2008, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crucifixion/444893/8 "2008-04-12T02:30:56Z")
[QUOTE=Exapno Mapcase] the truism that every death has this cause has no explanatory power. Why waste time with what becomes a meaningless redundancy? [/QUOTE] You’ll notice that’s why it’s never said. But it’s also kind of cool to hear it. Anyway, _you’re_ a meaningless redundancy. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2008, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crucifixion/444893/9 "2008-04-12T03:57:02Z")
Crucifixion’s not such a bad way to go, really, ---
**Author:** ![triolamj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e19b73/32.png) [@triolamj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/triolamj)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2008, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crucifixion/444893/10 "2008-04-12T05:24:04Z")
I seem to remember an episode of “Quincy, M.E.” with William Shatner in a guest role as an investigator who was trying to prove that an apparently natural death wasn’t. Shatner’s character got himself drunk or partly drunk and put himself in the killer’s path. The upshot was that the killer had gotten the victim drunk and bound him in a standing position until his blood volume pooled in his lower body and overworked his heart and lungs, resulting in the victim’s death from cardiac failure. Shatner’s actions scare the killer, Quincy and Co. save Shatner, and the killer gives himself away and is arrested. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2008, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crucifixion/444893/11 "2008-04-12T06:01:15Z")
I saw a special on crucifixion recently, and one of the ideas they came up with was the fact that since Jesus fell with the beam while carrying it, he got an anurism (sp?) on his heart which ruptured once increased blood flow was required as his body was strained. The “mix of blood and water” when the solder stabbed him being “water” (fluid) from the sack around the heart followed by blood from the rupture in the heart. > [@Lanzy](#): > > Have “we” gained some proof there was a crucifixion? cite besides the bible? A crucifixion as a means of torture? Yes, we’ve found remains that bear most/all of the description of a crucified body, but I suspect you mean of Jesus? We don’t even have enough proof to convince everyone there WAS a Jesus of Nazareth, much less a crucifixion. Nonetheless the Bible has been a wonderful insight into, if not actual history, the mindset of the time. As it would incorporate many actual methods law, torture, ritual etc of the time the crucifixion of Jesus can at least be taken as a reasonable analogue to the real thing and as such speculation on his causes of death shouldn’t be discounted entirely, at least not until we have enough evidence to show that crucifixion as portrayed in the bible is an utter crock. ---
**Author:** ![Khampelf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Khampelf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khampelf)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2008, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crucifixion/444893/12 "2008-04-12T06:24:59Z")
[QUOTE=Tuckerfan] Crucifixion’s not such a bad way to go, really, [/QUOTE] Could be worse. Could be stabbed. ---
**Author:** ![bibliophage](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bibliophage/32/7615_2.png) [@bibliophage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bibliophage)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2008, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crucifixion/444893/13 "2008-04-12T11:05:45Z")
[QUOTE=Alex\_Dubinsky] Anyway, _you’re_ a meaningless redundancy. [/QUOTE] If you’re trying to be funny, you’re failing. Personal attacks are not permitted outside the BBQ Pit, as you well know. You may consider this an official warning. bibliophage moderator CCC ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2008, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crucifixion/444893/14 "2008-04-13T14:32:51Z")
[QUOTE=John W. Kennedy] Such early outside accounts of Christianity as we possess do not seem to doubt it. In general, those who have denied it through the centuries have denied it because it went against their own religious prejudices, _ee.g.,_ the Gnostic cults, who denied that anyone so holy as Jesus could possibly have such a dirty, icky thing as a human body to begin with, and the Jehovah’s Witnesses, whose objections are ultimately based on a naïve translation. [/QUOTE] What do the JWs believe? And what translation are you referring to? ---
**Author:** ![doonesbury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85e7bf/32.png) [@doonesbury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doonesbury)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2008, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crucifixion/444893/15 "2008-04-13T23:18:55Z")
[QUOTE=bibliophage] If you’re trying to be funny, you’re failing. Personal attacks are not permitted outside the BBQ Pit, as you well know. You may consider this an official warning. bibliophage moderator CCC [/QUOTE] I believe the above was a reference to a line from the Monty Python film, Live of Brian (for better or worse). D ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2008, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crucifixion/444893/16 "2008-04-14T02:32:03Z")
[QUOTE=the raindog] What do the JWs believe? And what translation are you referring to? [/QUOTE] Their own. Their error is the assumption that the vocabularies of ancient Greek and English possess a one-to-one mapping (which, of course, no two languages do), wherefore they maintain that, because the word “σταυρός” means “stake” in Homer, or Plato, or Aristophanes, it must consequently mean “stake” anywhere else, and therefore the translation “cross” must be part of the Evil Conspiracy. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Rieux](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Dr.Rieux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Rieux)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2008, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crucifixion/444893/17 "2008-04-14T16:31:20Z")
The Witnesses insist that Jesus was not nailed to a cross, but rather impaled on a stake. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2008, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crucifixion/444893/18 "2008-04-14T20:43:30Z")
[QUOTE=John W. Kennedy] Their own. Their error is the assumption that the vocabularies of ancient Greek and English possess a one-to-one mapping (which, of course, no two languages do), wherefore they maintain that, because the word “σταυρός” means “stake” in Homer, or Plato, or Aristophanes, it must consequently mean “stake” anywhere else, and therefore the translation “cross” must be part of the Evil Conspiracy. [/QUOTE] Is that the entire basis for that belief; their translation? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2008, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crucifixion/444893/19 "2008-04-14T22:08:23Z")
Note also that even the early detractors of Christianity [still acknowledged that Jesus was crucified](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Jesus_graffito.jpg). ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2008, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crucifixion/444893/20 "2008-04-14T22:12:58Z")
[QUOTE=Chronos] Note also that even the early detractors of Christianity [still acknowledged that Jesus was crucified](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Jesus_graffito.jpg'). [/QUOTE] That link does not work. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crucifixion/444893.md?page=2)