# Crusader Kings II (aka O Dear God What Have I Gotten Myself Into...) **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [September 24, 2014, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crusader-kings-ii-aka-o-dear-god-what-have-i-gotten-myself-into/699429 "2014-09-24T13:16:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2014, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crusader-kings-ii-aka-o-dear-god-what-have-i-gotten-myself-into/699429/21 "2014-09-25T15:01:14Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > That’s okay, I figured it out. (This game _really_ needs an in-game tutorial…) > > Is it possible to fabricate [del]evidence of WMDs[/del] a claim against one of your own vassals? It says the player will take a diplo hit if I revoke a title “if you do not have a claim” – does that mean I can send my chancellor there to fabricate [del]evidence of WMDs[/del] a claim on his county? That would certainly solve my current problem. I don’t believe so. The game **really** doesn’t want you to revoke land from your vassals. If you have no claim, your options generally are: Just revoke it and soak the tyrant penalty Realm purge Put them on the front lines in a war and hope they die (works better if they have low Martial) Make them your spy and make them study technology in a far off country with a good spy (if they have low cunning), hoping they die. Hope they revolt. Assassinate them. Plots are usually better than paying money, IMO. Edit: There’s some convoluted stuff you can do through marriage, but it’s such a roulette I can never get it to work. ---
**Author:** ![GreasyJack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/df705f/32.png) [@GreasyJack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreasyJack)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2014, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crusader-kings-ii-aka-o-dear-god-what-have-i-gotten-myself-into/699429/22 "2014-09-25T15:27:06Z")
Also, check if there’s a plot to revoke their title in the intrigue tab. I’ve never entirely figured out the rhyme or reason to why revoke plots show up there, but they’re a pretty sweet way to revoke without penalty if they do show up. One slightly game-y thing you can do is temporarily replace your spymaster with a 0 intrigue one and then try to arrest the troublesome vassal. Assuming you and your wife’s intrigue aren’t too high, that should give you a close to single digit arrest chance, and once he rebels and you quash him you can take his title for free. Don’t forget to give your old spymaster his job back! ---
**Author:** ![Rysto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecccb3/32.png) [@Rysto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysto)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2014, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crusader-kings-ii-aka-o-dear-god-what-have-i-gotten-myself-into/699429/23 "2014-09-25T17:41:58Z")
> [@GreasyJack](#): > > That probably happened because you had high (or absolute) crown authority, which makes it so lower titles can’t pass outside the realm through inheritance. > > I would have assumed so long as you held onto the empire title that you would retain control over the kingdom-level ones, but I guess they become independent? I’ve only really played with elective succession in the HRE, where I think all the kingdom-level titles are normal inherited succession, so I’ve never had that situation of lower titles being elective. I misspoke. They didn’t become independent, but they elected Kings who were not my heir, so I lost direct control of the Kingdoms. They were still my vassals, but I lost half of my demesne to the new Kings. ---
**Author:** ![Terminus\_Est](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terminus_est/32/3087_2.png) [@Terminus\_Est](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terminus_Est)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2014, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crusader-kings-ii-aka-o-dear-god-what-have-i-gotten-myself-into/699429/24 "2014-09-25T18:37:09Z")
> [@Rysto](#): > > I misspoke. They didn’t become independent, but they elected Kings who were not my heir, so I lost direct control of the Kingdoms. They were still my vassals, but I lost half of my demesne to the new Kings. Right. See my post above about different kingdoms operating under different inheritance laws. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2014, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crusader-kings-ii-aka-o-dear-god-what-have-i-gotten-myself-into/699429/25 "2014-09-25T22:00:21Z")
> [@GreasyJack](#): > > Also, check if there’s a plot to revoke their title in the intrigue tab. I’ve never entirely figured out the rhyme or reason to why revoke plots show up there, but they’re a pretty sweet way to revoke without penalty if they do show up. > > One slightly game-y thing you can do is temporarily replace your spymaster with a 0 intrigue one and then try to arrest the troublesome vassal. Assuming you and your wife’s intrigue aren’t too high, that should give you a close to single digit arrest chance, and once he rebels and you quash him you can take his title for free. Don’t forget to give your old spymaster his job back! A revocation plot shows up if a direct vassal owns a county that is de jure part of your ruler’s primary duchy. ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2014, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crusader-kings-ii-aka-o-dear-god-what-have-i-gotten-myself-into/699429/26 "2014-09-25T22:53:20Z")
> [@GreasyJack](#): > > One slightly game-y thing you can do is temporarily replace your spymaster with a 0 intrigue one and then try to arrest the troublesome vassal. But doesn’t arresting someone without cause also give you a tyrant penalty? The uppity count has formed an “Independence Faction”, but I’m still charged a penalty if I try to arrest or revoke him. > [@Jragon](#): > > A revocation plot shows up if a direct vassal owns a county that is de jure part of your ruler’s primary duchy. Where would I find that plot if it’s available? Also, is there any advantage to pressing claims on behalf of your courtiers? I just pressed a weak claim against a petty kingdom in Wales, thinking it would give me control of two more counties, but instead it just installed the lowborn as the new duchess. She likes me a lot now, but I didn’t even gain any prestige or money or anything! 😕 ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2014, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crusader-kings-ii-aka-o-dear-god-what-have-i-gotten-myself-into/699429/27 "2014-09-25T23:43:33Z")
By the way, umm, how concerned should I be that the Duke of Lannister next door has fabricated a claim against one of my core counties? :eek: ---
**Author:** ![GreasyJack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/df705f/32.png) [@GreasyJack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreasyJack)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2014, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crusader-kings-ii-aka-o-dear-god-what-have-i-gotten-myself-into/699429/28 "2014-09-26T00:43:40Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > But doesn’t arresting someone without cause also give you a tyrant penalty? The uppity count has formed an “Independence Faction”, but I’m still charged a penalty if I try to arrest or revoke him. Oh, oops. I coulda sworn you didn’t get the penalty for failed arrest attempts, but I just tried it and I guess not. If all else fails, you could just grant him independence, switch to primogeniture and then I think you should probably still have a claim on his county so you can just reconquer him. > [@buddha\_david](#): > > Where would I find that plot if it’s available? > > Also, is there any advantage to pressing claims on behalf of your courtiers? I just pressed a weak claim against a petty kingdom in Wales, thinking it would give me control of two more counties, but instead it just installed the lowborn as the new duchess. She likes me a lot now, but I didn’t even gain any prestige or money or anything! 😕 Under the intrigue tab, there will sometimes be a “choose plot” button available. Apparently the revoke plot only shows up if it’s a county that’s de jure in your main duchy. Pressing a title for someone else is really tricky. In general the contested title will wind up under your control only if the title is lower than your highest title and if the claimant is already a vassal or is a dynasty member. Usually if you can give the claimant a barony somewhere or something before you start the war, it’ll work. You can also sometimes just get them to accept vassalization right after the war if it’s a neighboring county and they’ve got the same religion and culture group. That’s incidentally the one reason I don’t really play this game in ironman mode. I _still_ after 340 hours in (yikes!) wind up screwing up those claimaint wars more often then not. I wish there were some sort of “what if?” thing you could run to figure out what will happen if you win a war before you fight it. ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2014, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crusader-kings-ii-aka-o-dear-god-what-have-i-gotten-myself-into/699429/29 "2014-09-26T01:22:36Z")
> [@GreasyJack](#): > > Pressing a title for someone else is really tricky. In general the contested title will wind up under your control only if the title is lower than your highest title and if the claimant is already a vassal or is a dynasty member. Usually if you can give the claimant a barony somewhere or something before you start the war, it’ll work. How do I give a barony to someone? ---
**Author:** ![Rysto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecccb3/32.png) [@Rysto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysto)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2014, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crusader-kings-ii-aka-o-dear-god-what-have-i-gotten-myself-into/699429/30 "2014-09-26T01:46:22Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > Also, is there any advantage to pressing claims on behalf of your courtiers? I just pressed a weak claim against a petty kingdom in Wales, thinking it would give me control of two more counties, but instead it just installed the lowborn as the new duchess. She likes me a lot now, but I didn’t even gain any prestige or money or anything! 😕 Yeah, this is tricky. In my Ireland game after becoming the King of Ireland I started looking at taking over Wales. Unfortunately for me, somehow the King of Portugal controlled one of the duchies, and Portugal was strong enough to grind me to paste if I tried to fight them one-on-one. As it happened, though, I had a courtier with a claim on that Duchy, and I happened to catch Portugal at a time when they were fighting 2 or 3 other wars, so I jumped in and kicked out Portugal. This left the duchy independent, allowing me to fabricate a claim at my leisure and fight an easy war against a weak independent duke. That’s a rare situation of course. Usually you’re not doing yourself any good for installing a new independent ruler. I wish it were possible to make a deal to press somebody’s claim if they promise to acknowledge you as their ruler afterwards. ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2014, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crusader-kings-ii-aka-o-dear-god-what-have-i-gotten-myself-into/699429/31 "2014-09-26T02:15:18Z")
Okay, now I have a _serious_ problem! I went ahead and revoked Count Clyde’s title anyway, and spread some money around to placate the vassals who were pissed off – and now it turns out I _can’t_ revolt to Primogeniture anyway, unless I become the King of Scotland first!!! Strangely enough, Ultimogeniture (youngest child inherits) is available, but revolting to that one REALLY pissed everyone off, especially my older kids. Gah!! I don’t want to be in gavelkind! So, umm, what should I do now? (Aside from arranging “accidents” for three of my four sons…) ---
**Author:** ![GreasyJack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/df705f/32.png) [@GreasyJack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreasyJack)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2014, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crusader-kings-ii-aka-o-dear-god-what-have-i-gotten-myself-into/699429/32 "2014-09-26T03:30:03Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > How do I give a barony to someone? The baronies are just the sub-county castle holdings. Unlike the cities and churches, nobles can hold them just like a normal county. They’re handy to have to give out so you can make a claimant your vassal without ceding them a whole county. Of course, usually you don’t have one, so you have to give them some out of the way county from your demesne. > [@buddha\_david](#): > > Okay, now I have a _serious_ problem! > > I went ahead and revoked Count Clyde’s title anyway, and spread some money around to placate the vassals who were pissed off – and now it turns out I _can’t_ revolt to Primogeniture anyway, unless I become the King of Scotland first!!! Strangely enough, Ultimogeniture (youngest child inherits) is available, but revolting to that one REALLY pissed everyone off, especially my older kids. Gah!! I don’t want to be in gavelkind! > > So, umm, what should I do now? (Aside from arranging “accidents” for three of my four sons…) I’ve sort of come to the conclusion that gavelkind isn’t that bad. Since your little brothers are in the same boat of having the short reign penalties, and you get the best of the holdings and claims on theirs, it’s usually pretty easy to just kick their butts and get everything back immediately. Winning an easy war or two right out of the gate also puts you in a lot better position with your other vassals, whereas primogeniture gives a small opinion penalty to everyone and a _big_ opinion penalty to any claimants so you often end up spending the first few years of your reign fighting civil wars anyways. ---
**Author:** ![Terminus\_Est](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terminus_est/32/3087_2.png) [@Terminus\_Est](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terminus_Est)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2014, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crusader-kings-ii-aka-o-dear-god-what-have-i-gotten-myself-into/699429/33 "2014-09-26T03:35:34Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > How do I give a barony to someone? You give a barony the same way you give any other title. Go to a character’s diplomacy screen, then click on “Grant Landed Title” and choose from the list of available titles. I think they’re even conveniently sorted by rank. You need to be holding the title yourself in order to grant it. ---
**Author:** ![Terminus\_Est](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terminus_est/32/3087_2.png) [@Terminus\_Est](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terminus_Est)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2014, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crusader-kings-ii-aka-o-dear-god-what-have-i-gotten-myself-into/699429/34 "2014-09-26T04:00:32Z")
> [@GreasyJack](#): > > I’ve sort of come to the conclusion that gavelkind isn’t that bad. Since your little brothers are in the same boat of having the short reign penalties, and you get the best of the holdings and claims on theirs, it’s usually pretty easy to just kick their butts and get everything back immediately. Winning an easy war or two right out of the gate also puts you in a lot better position with your other vassals, whereas primogeniture gives a small opinion penalty to everyone and a _big_ opinion penalty to any claimants so you often end up spending the first few years of your reign fighting civil wars anyways. Gavelkind was rather buggy on the game’s release. The titles were sorted by rank and value, with the highest title going to the oldest son, the next highest going to the second son and so on. The problem is that it would often give the duchy (or kingdom as the case may be) to the oldest son, then divvy up the counties in the duchy among the other sons, leaving you (the player) with no actual land to support yourself. If you did get a county, it would often be in some godforsaken corner of the realm. This was only fixed much later (I want to say after _The Old Gods_ was released), such that higher-level titles (duchies or kingdoms) always came with at least the capital. ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2014, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crusader-kings-ii-aka-o-dear-god-what-have-i-gotten-myself-into/699429/35 "2014-09-26T04:13:18Z")
> [@Terminus\_Est](#): > > Gavelkind was rather buggy on the game’s release. The titles were sorted by rank and value, with the highest title going to the oldest son, the next highest going to the second son and so on. The problem is that it would often give the duchy (or kingdom as the case may be) to the oldest son, then divvy up the counties in the duchy among the other sons, leaving you (the player) with no actual land to support yourself. If you did get a county, it would often be in some godforsaken corner of the realm. This was only fixed much later (I want to say after _The Old Gods_ was released), such that higher-level titles (duchies or kingdoms) always came with at least the capital. Well, if King Gudrød were to die tomorrow, his second son would get the lion’s share of the realm (Duchy of Galloway, plus two of its counties) which isn’t so bad, I was thinking of granting that to him if my demense ever gets too big. My firstborn would get the capital county, son #3 would get the second county (I forget what it’s called) and little Jorundr wouldn’t get diddly-squat. I didn’t know that gavelkind succession automatically gives you claims on the territories you lost, so that does make it less onerous. Plus I’m getting a really big opinion boost from my vassals with gavelkind as well. On the other hand, I’m tempted to try Elective Succession, and voting for my genius nephew to inherit everything, leaving my good-for-nothing kids in the lurch… 🆒 Another question: In times of peace, is it better to have my Marshal research technology (seem to be falling behind in that regard) or have him train troops in case I get surprise attacked? ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2014, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crusader-kings-ii-aka-o-dear-god-what-have-i-gotten-myself-into/699429/36 "2014-09-26T05:24:06Z")
> [@GreasyJack](#): > > Under the intrigue tab, there will sometimes be a “choose plot” button available. Apparently the revoke plot only shows up if it’s a county that’s de jure in your main duchy. > > Pressing a title for someone else is really tricky. In general the contested title will wind up under your control only if the title is lower than your highest title and if the claimant is already a vassal or is a dynasty member. Usually if you can give the claimant a barony somewhere or something before you start the war, it’ll work. You can also sometimes just get them to accept vassalization right after the war if it’s a neighboring county and they’ve got the same religion and culture group. I use a “revolving door” county. I grant them the least valuable county in my primary duchy, press their claim, then start a revocation plot and take the initial county back. The attitude bonus for “pressed my claim” far outweighs any penalty for revoking the county. I’ve grabbed entire kingdoms in quick succession this way once I was an emperor. ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2014, 9:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crusader-kings-ii-aka-o-dear-god-what-have-i-gotten-myself-into/699429/37 "2014-09-26T09:44:43Z")
Well, that Welsh duchess who I helped claim the throne of Wales showed up back at my court, with her kid in tow – she didn’t last a year before getting deposed. :smack: Last time I stick out my neck for someone… Oh, and that assassination plot against Count Clyde hasn’t gone anywhere yet – it’s at 89.5%, does it need to be 100% before anything happens? ---
**Author:** ![Recusant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/838e76/32.png) [@Recusant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Recusant)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2014, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crusader-kings-ii-aka-o-dear-god-what-have-i-gotten-myself-into/699429/38 "2014-09-26T12:18:23Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > By the way, umm, how concerned should I be that the Duke of Lannister next door has fabricated a claim against one of my core counties? :eek: Very. This means that he has somehow opened a portal from the Game of Thrones mod, and is formulating claims on territories in the vanilla game. Medieval soldiers against dragons… I don’t like your chances. Better kill him now. The duke of\* Lancaster\*, on the other hand, is a much smaller threat. Kill him anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2014, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crusader-kings-ii-aka-o-dear-god-what-have-i-gotten-myself-into/699429/39 "2014-09-26T15:43:02Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > Well, that Welsh duchess who I helped claim the throne of Wales showed up back at my court, with her kid in tow – she didn’t last a year before getting deposed. :smack: Last time I stick out my neck for someone… > > Oh, and that assassination plot against Count Clyde hasn’t gone anywhere yet – it’s at 89.5%, does it need to be 100% before anything happens? CK2 assassination plots work on the principle of “mean time to fire”. 100% plot power means that, on average, it will take 1 year to happen. I think 80% is the baseline to actually occur, but it will take a while. (You also need at least one co-conspirator). ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2014, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crusader-kings-ii-aka-o-dear-god-what-have-i-gotten-myself-into/699429/40 "2014-09-26T17:14:02Z")
Well, at this rate it’s gonna be a race between the assassination plot and the plague of tuberculosis that’s killing everyone… and the peasants are revolting… ah, what fun! > [@Recusant](#): > > Very. This means that he has somehow opened a portal from the Game of Thrones mod, and is formulating claims on territories in the vanilla game. Medieval soldiers against dragons… I don’t like your chances. Better kill him now. > > The duke of\* Lancaster\*, on the other hand, is a much smaller threat. Kill him anyway. Oops… apparently it was the Duke of Lothian, my bad. Except the plot’s gone now, since he died “under suspicious circumstances” and was replaced by his brother… hmm… Another question: How do you get rid of courtiers you don’t want hanging around? (Like, people with high intrigue but a low opinion of me.) Sometimes I can marry them off to someone in a county far away, but if they’re already married, there doesn’t seem to be any way to get rid of them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crusader-kings-ii-aka-o-dear-god-what-have-i-gotten-myself-into/699429.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crusader-kings-ii-aka-o-dear-god-what-have-i-gotten-myself-into/699429.md?page=3)