Cry in school, go to jail

The BBQ Pit
41

Before I come down on the prosecuter/judge, I want more details on the tantrum, because I can easily picture a scenario where the only choice is to take a kid off to a detention center.

We have several kids around this age at the (residential) facility where I work. Don’t underestimate them- their tantrums are legendary, and extremely dangerous. One child recently sent three trained, veteran staff members to the hospital, tore apart the unit they live on (including pulling over a several hundred pound TV cabinet), and necessitated an immediate change of unit for several kids until we could find suitable outside placement (IIRC, it took about five days before someone agreed to take the child). When I worked in crisis assessment, I had countless kids sent off for 72 hour evaluation, sometimes to the state-run facility which was over 4 hours from where we were located and which is run very much like a detention center. I have no doubt that I was responsible for traumatizing a lot of kids, but I slept just fine because I knew I was doing the right thing.

If this child has had an IEP in place since 2003, that tells me there are additional problems requiring special intervention, problems that have resulted in observable behavioral issues. It is possible that he had a tantrum that genuinely caused the school personnel to think he would hurt himself or someone else; at that point their hands are indeed tied and they have two choices: detention center or psych facility (and most psych facilities WILL NOT take actively violent kids- quite the conundrum).

It is also possible that the folks involved here are fuckwits of the highest order, but I’m not going to say either way until I know more.

42

The whole thing is sick and stupid. Someone - starting with the DA and prosecutor should should spend some time in jail themselves, for perverting the law in this way. It’s fucked up.

43

[QUOTE=ethanwinfield]
Maybe they should focus their resources on teaching spelling.
[/QUOTE]

“Principle” is spelled correctly.

44

[QUOTE=Otto]
“Principle” is spelled correctly.
[/QUOTE]

Yes, but a Principle is unlikely to be named Kay Jones. A Principal would, and that otherwise fits the context better.

45

[QUOTE=bobkitty]
We have several kids around this age at the (residential) facility where I work. Don’t underestimate them- their tantrums are legendary, and extremely dangerous. One child recently sent three trained, veteran staff members to the hospital, tore apart the unit they live on (including pulling over a several hundred pound TV cabinet), and necessitated an immediate change of unit for several kids until we could find suitable outside placement (IIRC, it took about five days before someone agreed to take the child). When I worked in crisis assessment, I had countless kids sent off for 72 hour evaluation, sometimes to the state-run facility which was over 4 hours from where we were located and which is run very much like a detention center. I have no doubt that I was responsible for traumatizing a lot of kids, but I slept just fine because I knew I was doing the right thing.
[/QUOTE]

Yipes. Before I read your post, bobkitty, my assessment was that the grown-ups in this case had abdicated their adult responsibilites out of a clear lack of confidence in their ability to handle a child. (Not that I blame this kid. I mean that the adults seemed to have formulated policies that allow them to wash their hands of their responsibility to deal with these kinds of issues. I imagine it makes it alot easier to deal with difficult situations by just handing them over to the justice system. “Jerkfaces” was the word that came to mind.)

But your post has given me a different perspective. Again, NOT that I assume this situation was handled correctly (because, really, the article doesn’t give enough information to tell). I had no idea that kids could cause this much damage. What was the age of the kid who sent the adults to the hospital? How did that happen?

I’m still leaning toward the opinion that the school grossly mishandled this situation, though, in light of the fact that the kid seems to be doing ok in a different district.

46

Yeah, but bobkitty, shouldn’t he have been put in a JUVENILE facility then?

47

This just isn’t true. Almost any student can have an IEP (Individual Education Plan). All it takes is a parent that demands one. Normally, they’re reserved for students who require some adaptation in school - learning disability, mental retardation, or even a gifted and talented child. Just because a kid has one does not mean they have observable behavioral issues. It could, for instance, mean that the school has been notified the child has asthma and needs some changes made to the PE curriculum.

48

[QUOTE=chrisk]
Yes, but a Principle is unlikely to be named Kay Jones.
[/quote]

“The Kay Jones Principle” sounds like either an obscure management seminar concept or a failed 60s Brit-rock group.

Which would make the error either one of grammar or word choice, not spelling.

49

[QUOTE=Otto]
Which would make the error either one of grammar or word choice, not spelling.
[/QUOTE]

Beg to differ. The reporter knew exactly what word he wanted. He didn’t imagine that he was somehow talking about a philosophical tenet named Kay Jones. He meant to write about the head-of-the-school Kay Jones, i.e. Principal Kay Jones. Therefore it was a spelling error.

50

This is just a question. I realize there is not enough information in the article to answer this about this specific case, but it made me think of this question.

Given that a child protection case against the parent was mentioned, I wondered if there are ever situations where a child would be detained in juvie (away from the rest of the population, as seems to have happened here) if there is a question about the fitness of the home. I vaguely recall seeing similiar news stories about children who remain in detention if a foster placement isn’t available until the home situation can be evaluated.

51

[QUOTE=bobkitty]
If this child has had an IEP in place since 2003, that tells me there are additional problems requiring special intervention, problems that have resulted in observable behavioral issues. .
[/QUOTE]

From what I understand the IEP is in place for the speech impediment.

52

[QUOTE=chrisk]
Yes, but a Principle is unlikely to be named Kay Jones.
[/QUOTE]

Unless the school is called The Thing.

53

In my reading the procedure I’ve seen has been that the child in question may be detained in a juvie facility if there isn’t a dedicated fostercare facility for unplaced children. I can see, albiet with difficulty, the need to isolate the child. Doing it in jail, however, seems vile.

Also, the investigation by child protective services should have been begun (or at least opened) the night the child was detained. Not once the judge declares the child incapable of being tried.

So, we’re back to the justified pitting, here.

54

[QUOTE=niblet_head]
But your post has given me a different perspective. Again, NOT that I assume this situation was handled correctly (because, really, the article doesn’t give enough information to tell). I had no idea that kids could cause this much damage. What was the age of the kid who sent the adults to the hospital? How did that happen?
[/QUOTE]

I agree that we don’t have enough information to tell exactly what happened here- keep in mind that teachers and administrators are significantly limited in how they can handle a tantrumming child, and they may have had no other choice but to call the police, which necessitates legal involvement- but the likelihood is there’s a dumbass policy in place and a zealous prosecutor.

In the incident I referenced, the child was a very small (most of our kids come from neglectful situations and are undersized) nine. They were upset due to situational factors, and had in fact recently returned from a juvvie facility stay. However, that situation is not unusual- one of our seven-year-olds broke a staff member’s finger during a tantrum (the staff needed surgery to repair it) and there are always bruises/sprains/bumps/etc.

He was- the article states he was moved to the Bannock County Juvenille Detention Center. The statement that he was given an “oversized jail uniform” makes for good press, but is probably because juvvie facilities don’t normally take kids that size, and they were probably out of standard-issue clothing. Notice that they kept him separate for the duration of his stay- that at least tells you someone had their head screwed on right.

When I use the term “behavioral issues” I use it with intentional broadness, in the “operationally define” manner. No one knows that an IEP needs to be in place unless there’s a demonstrated behavioral change. Everything you listed has specific behavioral characteristics that define them, otherwise anyone could walk in and say “My kid’s gifted. No, I don’t have any proof, just accomodate them.” Even your asthma example has a behavioral component- for example, to receive an accomodation in that situation, a parent must walk in to the school say “Every time Jimmy runs for 200 feet, he becomes red in the face, clutches his chest, and wheezes. This prompted us to take him to his doctor, where he was diagnosed with asthma. Here are the doctor’s orders regarding Jimmy’s ability to participate in PE.” Only then is an IEP put into place.

I apologize for the misunderstanding.

If there is no other placement available- no relatives, no friends, no foster care openings- and there needs to be an immediate placement, absolutely. In fact, it happens so often in a town near mine that they are in process of raising money to build a 100-bed facility solely to deal with this situation, because it is putting a strain on the juvvie system.

55

[QUOTE=Greathouse]
Sorry. I don’t see the big deal.
[/QUOTE]
Maybe you should be called Big House.

56

[QUOTE=Aeschines]
Maybe you should be called Big House.
[/QUOTE]

Maybe you should read the rest of the thread.

57

[QUOTE=Guinastasia]
Yeah, but bobkitty, shouldn’t he have been put in a JUVENILE facility then?
[/QUOTE]

He WAS taken to a juvenile facility Guin. Look:

[QUOTE= second paragraph of the article linked by the OP]
Renee Alvarez, 25, said School Resource Officer Fred Harms came to her American Falls home in November and instructed her to pick up her youngest son Donovan, 6, at Hillcrest Elementary School because he was transporting the boy’s older brother, Fabian, 7, to the Bannock County Juvenile Detention Center in Pocatello.
[/QUOTE]
Bolding etc. mine. I don’t know if sending him to juvie was the right thing to do or not. I am leaning towards the idea that they went too far in what they did, and there was a better way to do things that they didn’t employ. I also think the prosecutor is going to find out what the penalty for malicious prosecution is, but that is just my own hunch.

58

Ooops. Sorry 'bout that.

Still, it sounds like overkill.

59

[QUOTE=jjimm]
However, I didn’t know I have some kind of failed-humour reputation. Do elaborate!
[/QUOTE]

You don’t. I was just trying to be nasty, and quite frankly if I’d called you a corpse-felching so-and-so, you’d have shrugged it off. Just some left over road rage form the drive home.

60

[QUOTE=saoirse]
You don’t. I was just trying to be nasty, and quite frankly if I’d called you a corpse-felching so-and-so, you’d have shrugged it off. Just some left over road rage form the drive home.
[/QUOTE]

Actually, he’s not even the one who said it. That was me and I’ve already apologized for the mistake. I don’t know how he got attributed to my quote, but that’s what looks like happened.

No harm, no foul.

If I have miss understood your whole conversation then…never mind I guess, and sorry for trying to jump into a two seater.