Crypto is NOT a Ponzi scheme

My takeaway from this thread is that people like to argue for the sake of arguing. I agree with the OP that a Ponzi scheme is a specific thing, and that the definition should be kept there or we run the risk of accidentally including large chunks of the “real” financial system in the definition. I agree that cryptocurrencies have been involved in various types of frauds, some of them being Ponzi schemes.

My hubby won a little money in the lottery recently, and mentioned it over the phone to an old friend who lives several hours away, a guy we have coffee with maybe once every 2 years. The friend started talking about this amazing investment opportunity he’s discovered, based on crypto and virtual reality, where you’re guaranteed a 30% return but it’s usually much more, and he had already put in 40 grand and was impressed with the results he had had in just a few weeks, and he was in the process of putting in more, and he had put the down payment on a large chunk of real estate in the woods to build his mega-mansion on, and would my hubby be interested, etc.

It’s hard to know what to say to that. You don’t want to tell your friend that he’s been had. Hubby said “No thank you, I don’t trust this investment firm and you should avoid putting in more money” , which the friend blew off of course. He had given a name for the “investment company”; we looked it up later, it had changed names a few times in the preceding months, had a beautiful website which had a whole bunch of tech-sounding buzzwords assembled into sentences that made no sense. The accent was on virtual reality, that week. Crypto was in the mix but they didn’t even bother to give a specific name for the currency.

The friend then texted hubby a couple of times over the ensuing weeks to try to get hubby to invest, and then he went silent.

This was certainly a fraud, and possibly a Ponzi scheme. A specific entity promising specific, non-realistic returns. We don’t know what would have happened if the friend had asked for his money back, he seemed to be relying on his “statements” to estimate his gainz. Crypto may have been involved, there’s no way to tell; it was certainly invoked. But the main weapons were ignorance and gullibility.

More realistically, no commerce at all will take place, and people will simply help each other out for a few weeks until rescue arrives.

I did some more reading on bitcoin & other cryptocurrencies.

I believe it is completely fair to say the “worth” of any and all coins is completely made up out of thin air. All kinds of exchanges, coins, stablecoins, and other bullshit has been created to buy coins with other coins in a never ending circlejerk to inflate the valuation.
The “value” of bitcoin et al is based on 1 shiny dollar Nakamoto believed he had lost in his couch.

Calling it a Ponzi scheme is unfair to upstanding Ponzi schemers. At least Madoff paid some of his investors and actually had the decency to put some effort in cooking the books. This is all smoke and mirrors.

Bitcoin started @ ~1300 BTC to a dollar in 2009.
Then someone created some other coin, He bought a bitcoin from himself with the new coin he himself valued @ $0.01: Boom! Bitcoin is now trading at $0.01! Now find some marks to throw real money into your “exchange”.
Until one of your “investors” wants (some of) their money back in real dollars. Ooopsie, oh noooos, we’ve been hacked! sorry! No real dollars in your accounts!

This is done by 1000’s of different “companies” all playing the same con. All pumping their own coins and living large of any real dollars marks “invest”.

Line goes up!
Click here to start making money!
We have a really good app, with lines in all colors that go up!

Just never, ever withdraw more than $0.01 at the same time.
Here is an (incomplete) list of crypto exchanges where somebody tried to withdraw something and the amounts they had squirreled away, sorry got “hacked” for.

2022 FTX - $600 million
2022 Crypto.com - $34 million
2021 AscendEX - $80 million
2021 BitMart - $150 million|
2021 Liquid - $97 million
2020 EXMO - $4 million
2020 KuCoin - $275 million
2020 Cashaa - $3.1 million
2020 Balancer - |$500,000
2020 Lendf.me - $24.5 million
2020 Uniswap - $500,000
2020 Altsbit - $70,000
2019 Youbit - Unknown
2019 Upbit - $49 million|
2019 Vindax - $500,000|
2019 Bitpoint - $32 million|
2019 Bitrue - $4.5 million
2019 Gatehub - $9.5 million
2019 Binance - $40 million
2019 Bithumb - $29 million
2019 Coinbene - $40 million
2019 DragonEX - $1 million
2019 Cryptopia - $16 million
2019 LocalBitcoins - $27,000
2018 Maplechange - $51,000
2018 Zaif - $60 million|
2018 Bithumb - $31 million|
2018 Coinrail - $40 million|
2018 CoinSecure - $3.5 million|
2018 Bitgrail - $146 million
2018 CoinCheck - $560 million
2017 EtherDelta - $1.4 million
2017, Bithumb - $7 million
2017 Yapizon - $5.3 million
2016 Bitfinex - $623 million
2016 Gatecoin - $2.14 million
2016 Shapeshift - $230,000
2016 BTER - $1.75 million
2015 Bitstamp - $5 million
2015 BTER - $1.65 million
2014 Mintpal - $2 million
2014 Poloniex - $50,000
2014 Mt. Gox - $460 million
2013 Bitcash - $100,000
2012 Bitfloor - $250,000
2012 Bitcoinica - $87,000
(numbers are an unknown mixture of real money and crypto )

This doesn’t mention the endless list of failed crypto projects that were straight up scams. “Rug pull” is a fun term to google: something so common in crypto projects they created a verb for it:)

It remains remarkable how the media keeps shilling this shit.

You forgot to mention the QuadrigaCX debacle, which has its own thread.

My bitcoin wallet is in my phone, with a paper backup in my basement. Nobody is going to empty it… although it’s possible bitcoin itself will become worthless.

It’s possible/necessary to use an exchange to transact between currencies, but for heaven’s sake just do your transaction and get out, don’t store anything there. But using an exchange as a bank, storing money (real “fiat” money or cryptocurrency) in a wallet/account managed by an exchange, is asking for trouble. It’s never clear when they’re going to go bust, but in the end almost all of them do, with or without scandal, and usually without warning.

It’s only a Ponzi scheme if you view it as an investment vehicle. The intention was to create a non-government currency. But then when the value started to go up people thought it was an investment, which makes no sense (to me). If it were used strictly as a universal currency that people used to actually buy stuff then it might be a useful thing to have around. But as soon as it became a get-rich-quick-scheme it was destined for the shitter.

That sounds like the “Paradox Metaverse” crypto scam that’s actively running.

The guy running it is a nasty piece of work too.

I don’t remember the exact name, but I just googled “Paradox Metaverse”, the buzzword salad is similar but the website didn’t look like that – but this happened about a year ago, an eternity in that universe. If it’s not this one, it’s the same kind of crap.

I don’t think it is because Paradox has only been around since April.

I wouldn’t be surprised if these new guys are just parroting an older scam.

I don’t know from Ponzi, but I bought a couple hundred dollars at 29k and it started to go up. “Buy $20 or so a week and it will accumulate.” Did so as it went into the 50s and got another couple hundred. All the pundits were talking about how it was going to hit 100k by the end of the year. Then some freaking Billionaire made a couple jokes about it and I lost half my value. That’s all it took. One arsehole who now owns Twitter making a joke (and I think he removed it as a payment for his cars).

Bitcoin was removed as a Tesla payment option because of its absurd environmental footprint. Tesla probably should have done more homework beforehand, but even among people that know it’s bad, I think it’s commonly underestimated just how astonishingly bad it is. You can drive a Tesla from one side of the country to the other–and back–for the energy it takes to process one transaction.

Things aren’t looking so hot for 'ol SBF:

Guess he won’t be able to testify before the House after all.

Nope, and I found it amusing when he basically got cornered into admitting fraud after being so evasive about it.

Basically, he admitted that people who were promised that their money was not going to be touched and was being held for them actually had their money taken and spent by FTX. He had previously insisted that the only people who had their money taken were people who had signed a different agreement.

I do think it’s debatable whether what FTX was doing was technically a Ponzi scheme. I think they just stole money that was entrusted to them. It’s just regular old embezzlement.

It continues to boggle the mind that people entrusted real money to this guy.
Everything the guy ever said just screams “scam”.

I especially love FSB’s “magic box” explanation of what FTX is. He is explaining in simple terms that it is a ponzi/piramide/whatever scam. It was for everyone to see on YouTube months before the collapse.
If someone put/kept their money in FTX after that…
LOL: fools and their money.

I don’t know (I have successfully ignored crypto until the new news), but however it was pronounced before, it’s definitely crispy now.

I think people are using the term “zombie apocalypse” as hyperbole to describe any sort of societal collapse.

Personally, I think that if you need to delve into “it will be useful when civilization ends!” to justify your currency’s existence, you’re probably doing something wrong.

Here’s some news.

No need. See the Venezuelan crash of its currency making it near worthless. Or, famously, in Zimbabwe where they printed $100 trillion notes that were worth about US $0.40.

Did anyone start using gold in Zimbabwe? Or Crypto in Venezuela?

I do not know about Zimbabwe but definitely yes on crypto for Venezuela.

In Venezuela’s economy, mired by hyperinflation and hemmed in by sanctions, the operation is not so straightforward.

Valiu uses pesos to buy cryptocurrency that it then sells on LocalBitcoins, a global peer-to-peer site for trading tokens in local currencies.

For Toro, the platform is more reliable than informal money changers, the main channel for Venezuelan migrants to send money home. And he need not buy traditional money orders in person.

SOURCE: As Venezuela’s economy regresses, crypto fills the gaps

Also: Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro Signals Support for Single Currency in Latam, Calls for Crypto Inclusion

IMHO this applies to crypto as a whole. Maybe I should feel sorry for the people who lost their money, but I don’t. Take an analogy of buying gold. Let’s say John has a couple thousand dollars and want to buy a krugerrand. The person offering to sell John a krugerrand has a coin press, a furnace, and the other relevant equipment to make a convincing fake. They use an alloy of tungsten and lead to get the right density, then use a top layer of gold plating to make it look real. If John buys that coin, I’d fault the seller.

Now let’s say Bob wants to also buy a krugerrand, but instead of buying a fake like the one John bought, he buys one of those giant novelty chocolate coins covered in gold colored aluminum foil. In this case I think Bob has some of the responsibility in getting scammed. IMHO buying crypto is more like the latter than the former.