# Cuccinelli vs Science **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 4, 2010, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cuccinelli-vs-science/538307 "2010-05-04T18:05:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2012, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cuccinelli-vs-science/538307/141 "2012-03-02T20:01:54Z")
Bumping this up for a huge update: [http://thinkprogress.org/romm/2012/03/02/436701/virginia-supreme-court-tosses-out-ag-cuccinelli-inquisition-on-michael-mann/](http://thinkprogress.org/romm/2012/03/02/436701/virginia-supreme-court-tosses-out-ag-cuccinelli-inquisition-on-michael-mann/) > [@](#): > > Virginia Supreme Court Tosses Out AG Cuccinelli Inquisition on Michael Mann > > In a victory for university scholars, the Virginia Supreme Court ruled today that Attorney General Ken Cuccinelli does not have the authority to demand the release of email and other documents related to the work of former University of Virginia climate scientist Michael Mann. Cuccinelli’s global warming denial machine fishing expedition had been criticized even by climate ‘skeptics’ who are no friends of Prof. Mann. It raised the chilling question of whether the university could protect researchers’ ability to privately and freely correspond with one another. Still, even with Cuccinelli being denied, the denial machine continues attempting to do an “end-run” around legal exceptions: > [@](#): > > Climate Science Legal Defense Fund: Support Michael Mann > > Funds are needed to defend Prof. Mann in the American Tradition Institute case, in which ATI is seeking to obtain Dr. Mann’s email correspondence through the civil discovery process, which essentially is an “end-run” around the scholarly research exemption under the Virginia FOIA law. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2012, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cuccinelli-vs-science/538307/142 "2012-03-02T20:23:02Z")
I don’t get it. Do they think that if they can discredit this one guy, then all the other research that confirms his work goes _poof_! gone! Suppose a total charlatan had made up the germ theory, made it up out of whole cloth and faked some stuff. And then Pasteur and Koch _et. al._ come along, and prove it. And then the original charlatan is unmasked…so what? Its still true! This is no longer a struggle over fact, its a struggle over propaganda. The Forces of Darkness appear to have given up on proof, and now want to deal in personalities. They seem to think if they can besmirch one guy, they will bring the whole structure crashing down. Ten years ago, maybe, but now there is a buttload of research that he isn’t even connected to. And two bits says at least some of that research was funded by people hoping to prove Mann wrong. They were probably convinced that he was wrong, and that by funding legitimate and scrupulous science, they were going to win! Science can be _such_ a little bitch, sometimes! ---
**Author:** ![Truman\_Burbank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecc23a/32.png) [@Truman\_Burbank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truman_Burbank)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2012, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cuccinelli-vs-science/538307/143 "2012-03-02T22:01:38Z")
I assume that Bricker will now stipulate sufficient evidence has been established? ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2012, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cuccinelli-vs-science/538307/144 "2012-03-02T22:33:51Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > … The Forces of Darkness appear to have given up on proof, and now want to deal in personalities. They seem to think if they can besmirch one guy, they will bring the whole structure crashing down… They’ve _now_ given up on proof? Evidence was never on their agenda. And they want to besmirch science itself, not just one single scientist. But sometimes they have to work on one scientist at a time, though they would prefer wholesale besmirchment. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2012, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cuccinelli-vs-science/538307/145 "2012-03-03T10:25:06Z")
> [@Truman\_Burbank](#): > > I assume that Bricker will now stipulate sufficient evidence has been established? Already done, way back when: > [@Bricker](#): > > Didn’t I already condemn it, at least implicitly? > > But, yeah, I’d say that latest quote from the horse’s mouthpiece swings the scales to tip the other way: I’d say now that it’s less likely he’s got even a fig leaf. ---
**Author:** ![Askance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askance/32/8281_2.png) [@Askance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askance)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2012, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cuccinelli-vs-science/538307/146 "2012-03-04T02:11:09Z")
Those reading this thread may be interested that Michael Mann has just released a book detailing his travails [The Hockey Stick and the Climate Wars: Dispatches from the Front Lines](http://www.amazon.com/The-Hockey-Stick-Climate-Wars/dp/023115254X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1330826940&sr=8-1). It got a pretty good review in New Scientist this week. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2012, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cuccinelli-vs-science/538307/147 "2012-03-04T04:10:09Z")
Nevermind. ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Cymbeline](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_cymbeline/32/9244_2.png) [@Green\_Cymbeline](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Cymbeline)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2012, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cuccinelli-vs-science/538307/148 "2012-03-04T04:25:46Z")
TruCelt, another Virginian here checking in to say I am disgusted by the whole state, especially the ultra right-wing conservative legislature and governor who have also put VA in the news with their outrageous anti-abortion antics. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2012, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cuccinelli-vs-science/538307/149 "2012-03-04T05:29:23Z")
[This is the court’s decision](http://www.courts.state.va.us/opinions/opnscvwp/1102359.pdf). It is interesting that decision rests solely on the idea that the University of Virginia is an arm of state government and immune from the taxpayer fraud statute. IANALawyer, but the idea seems to be that the state of Virginia cannot defraud itself. The decision did not address the merits (or lack of them) of the AGs claim at all. It suggests to me that had Mann worked at a private institution, the demand for information _might_ have been allowed by the court. At the very least, they would have had to use a different legal rational for dismissing it. Also interesting is the conflicting opinion of one judge who found that the UVA _should_ have been subject to the fraud statute, but this judge still would have rejected the AG’s demand on other grounds. Specifically, something that was discussed upthread – that there was no credible claim that any actual fraud took place. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2012, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cuccinelli-vs-science/538307/150 "2012-03-04T17:36:07Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > [This is the court’s decision](http://www.courts.state.va.us/opinions/opnscvwp/1102359.pdf). It is interesting that decision rests solely on the idea that the University of Virginia is an arm of state government and immune from the taxpayer fraud statute. IANALawyer, but the idea seems to be that the state of Virginia cannot defraud itself. The decision did not address the merits (or lack of them) of the AGs claim at all. > > It suggests to me that had Mann worked at a private institution, the demand for information _might_ have been allowed by the court. At the very least, they would have had to use a different legal rational for dismissing it. > > Also interesting is the conflicting opinion of one judge who found that the UVA _should_ have been subject to the fraud statute, but this judge still would have rejected the AG’s demand on other grounds. Specifically, something that was discussed upthread – that there was no credible claim that any actual fraud took place. The interesting part is the dimissal “with prejudice” (i.e. take this nonsense out of my court _and don’t ever bring it back_). ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2012, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cuccinelli-vs-science/538307/151 "2012-03-04T17:56:59Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > They’ve _now_ given up on proof? Evidence was never on their agenda. And they want to besmirch science itself, not just one single scientist. But sometimes they have to work on one scientist at a time, though they would prefer wholesale besmirchment. Can’t happen. Not as long as we science-minded continue to appease our Earth-Mothers, Gaia and Ixchel, with human sacrifice. That, or a nice sandwich. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Knig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@Typo\_Knig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Knig)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2012, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cuccinelli-vs-science/538307/152 "2012-03-04T20:42:09Z")
> [@Green\_Cymbeline](#): > > TruCelt, another Virginian here checking in to say I am disgusted by the whole state, especially the ultra right-wing conservative legislature and governor who have also put VA in the news with their outrageous anti-abortion antics. What she said! And what the fuck is the goat-felching legislature wasting its 60 day session in a budget year on this god-damned brain-dead mother-fucking ass-licking bullshit?!! The Republicans ran on budget issues, but they aren’t even passing a budget. That’s the only thing the Va legislature is supposed to do in alternate years LIKE THIS YEAR. Fuck them sideways with a telephone pole. Nobody with either a brain or with money should ever vote for those rat-bastards again. But will the voters remember? Nooooo! I don’t mind getting the government I deserve, but why should my family and I suffer with the government that religious fanatics deserve? (Writing for The Pit is very cathartic sometimes.) ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Knig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@Typo\_Knig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Knig)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2012, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cuccinelli-vs-science/538307/153 "2012-03-04T20:43:59Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Already done, way back when: I should have said this at the time: Good for you, **Bricker**! I hope I’m as good when the evidence runs against my personal views. I’m not putting any money on that, but I can hope. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cuccinelli-vs-science/538307.md?page=7)