# Cults vs. LDS

**URL:** <https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cults-vs-lds/191043>\
**Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\
**Created:** [July 26, 2003, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cults-vs-lds/191043 "2003-07-26T06:19:42Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 10\
**Page:** 1

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**Author:** ![ikderk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/8dc957/32.png) [@ikderk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ikderk)\
**Post date:** [July 26, 2003, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cults-vs-lds/191043/1 "2003-07-26T06:19:42Z")

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After reading the Church vs. Cults report by Euty([http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mcult.html](http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mcult.html)), I thought it was too similar to how the LDS (Latter-Day Saints or Mormons to you regular folks) operate. Lets go line by line;

a: preoccupation with bringing in new members and making money  
When LDS boys hit around 18-20, they are “strongly encouraged” to go on missions. While I wouldn’t mind being sent to Hawaii on the Church’s dime, a former friend (I’ll get to why later) drew Sao Paulo, Brazil. That place has one of the highest murder rates in the world and the kid doesn’t speak the language. Sending a kid that is unnerved by people saying “shit” to the homicide capital of the world seems dangerous and silly for the LDS organization. Like they have a strong preoccupation…

b: discouragement or punishment for any doubt or questioning of authority  
I have met many Mormons and not a single Democrat, Liberal, or even Moderate amongst them. They supported the war from the beginning, believe that Bush will not leave their children behind, and that Bill Clinton is responsible for everything from 9/11 intellegece failures to their milk spoiling.

c: a polarized “us vs. them” mindset  
They are a schism and they know it. They claim that the Catholics are a cult and that all the Protestant groups outside of the US have it all wrong. Some rather absurd arguments attempt to appeal to the xenophobia of certain Americans. They do believe that Jesus will come to the US, meaning that after 2003 years, all Jesus really wants is a Big Mac and a large Coke.

d: leadership is not accountable to any authority, either financially or morally  
The Mormons have a strong influence in Utah. There is a rumored “Porn Czar” that monitors the flow of pornographic materials in and out of the state.

e: belief that “the ends justify the means” and readiness to use unethical means to achieve their goals  
Sam Walton, a Mormon, owns Wal-Mart. 'Nuff said.

f: requiring members to socialize only with members of the cult  
Mormons at BYU, the big Mormon college in Utah, intermarry amonst other BYU students and Mormons. My former friend at BYU claims that 90% of young men get married by the time they return from their missions. Most of them pick up the freshmen girls that they date for \< 1 year and never have sex with. Marrige is the only place for them to express themselves sexually so there is a greater rush for marrige. However, you can only get married to one woman in most Mormon circles. Polygamy, or Mormon Hold 'Em, has been outlawed for a long time. BTW, when they do get married, only Mormons can attend the ceremony in the Temple, no regular sinners.  
g: in more extreme cases, requiring members to cut ties completely with family or the outside community  
My former friend is on his mission in Sao Paulo and I never hear from him. He decided to cut ties with most of his old friends after pressure from the church. In my case, I understand why. When he had his going-away party, I showed up with a massive hangover and reeking of booze. However, he has cut ties with everyone, even some people that thought they were close with the poor sap. Mormon girls are particularly protected, some are not allowed to go out with non-Mormon boys in any sort of circumstances.  
I understand that other groups have similar restrictions but the LDS has them in a pronounced way.

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**Author:** ![Beryl\_Mooncalf\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9f8e36/32.png) [@Beryl\_Mooncalf\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beryl_Mooncalf_1)\
**Post date:** [July 26, 2003, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cults-vs-lds/191043/2 "2003-07-26T07:11:01Z")

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I think you might be seeing more than there is to see. What if they are a cult? Does anything change? Are you threatened by someone?  
Check this expanded list and you’ll probably find less than half of the criteria apply,  
Try running the IRS through it and they will score higher.  
[Click for Checklist](http://www.csj.org/infoserv_cult101/checklis.htm)

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**Author:** ![AbbySthrnAccent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@AbbySthrnAccent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AbbySthrnAccent)\
**Post date:** [July 26, 2003, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cults-vs-lds/191043/3 "2003-07-26T08:18:42Z")

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You might want to know what you are talking about before you post. The board is about fighting ignorance not perpetuating it.

Let’s go line by line.

> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by ikderk \*  
> After reading the Church vs. Cults report by Euty(  
> Lets go line by line;  
> a: preoccupation with bringing in new members and making money  
> When LDS boys hit around 18-20, they are “strongly encouraged” to go on missions. While I wouldn’t mind being sent to Hawaii on the Church’s dime, a former friend (I’ll get to why later) drew Sao Paulo, Brazil. That place has one of the highest murder rates in the world and the kid doesn’t speak the language. Sending a kid that is unnerved by people saying “shit” to the homicide capital of the world seems dangerous and silly for the LDS organization. Like they have a strong preoccupation…

Since your remarks don’t really address “a” I’ll address your remarks first.

Young men between the ages of **19** and **26** are encouraged to serve a mission. Additionally, young women may decide to serve a mission after their 21st birthday. Older couples usually retired also serve missions. There are about 11 and half million members of the church world wide and about 60,000 are serving missions. The purpose of a mission is to teach the gospel of Jesus Christ following the biblical pattern of sending out missionaries two by two. Almost always the mission has the added benefit of solidifying the faith of the missionary. What better way to strengthen than to have to defend? Mission’s are not “on the Church’s dime”, the people serving the mission or their families bear the cost themselves. Missionaries generally work 60-65 hours a week teaching the gospel and participating in community service. There are 16 language training centers around the world. Those who need to learn a language spend 8 weeks in language training prior to traveling to their assigned area. The language training program is widely regarded as one of the most effective used.

With regards “a: preoccupation with bringing in new members and making money”

We have a strong tradition of missionary service. We believe that we are following Christ’s words, “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations” (Matthew 28:19) when we render missionary service and we consider it a privilege to show their love for other people and the Lord by sharing the gospel as he taught.

I’m not sure how to address the accusation of making money, but I’ll take a stab at it by using some quotes.

“The financial base of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the voluntary financial contributions of its members. Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints practice the law of tithing as it was taught and practiced in the Old Testament. The word “tithe” means “tenth.” Faithful members donate a full tenth of their income for the work of the Church.”  
The greatest portion of Church expenditures goes toward construction and maintenance of chapels and buildings in which to worship, meet and learn. Approximately 500 chapels and other church buildings were under construction in 2002. Substantial funds are also required for the Church Educational System, which includes Brigham Young University (with campuses in Utah, Idaho and Hawaii), LDS Business College, seminaries and institutes of religion and Church schools in other countries.

The remainder is spent on other activities, including missionary and temple work, written materials in dozens of languages and the global administration of the Church. "

“It should be recognized,” said President Gordon B. Hinckley in 1985, “that all of these are money-consuming assets and not money-producing assets. They do not produce financial wealth, but they do help to produce and strengthen Latter-day Saints. When all is said and done, the only real wealth of the Church is the faith of its people.”

“Humanitarian assistance rendered has reached 147 countries and is valued at tens of millions of dollars annually. Since 1985, supplies that have been distributed include 38,833 tons of food, 4,345 tons of medical equipment, 43,972 tons of surplus clothing and 3,312 tons of educational supplies. The Church has established Latter-day Saint Charities, an organization that distributes food, offers assistance during times of disaster, funds and encourages projects that benefit stricken communities, teaches self-reliance and helps people begin small business enterprises in their own homes.”

> [@](#):
>
> b: discouragement or punishment for any doubt or questioning of authority  
> I have met many Mormons and not a single Democrat, Liberal, or even Moderate amongst them. They supported the war from the beginning, believe that Bush will not leave their children behind, and that Bill Clinton is responsible for everything from 9/11 intellegece failures to their milk spoiling.

Again your remarks don’t seem to have anything to do with the statement they are supposed to be supporting, so I will address the two separately, your remarks first.

My that’s a huge brush you’re using.

There are about 11 and half million members of the church worldwide and we do not all agree on politics. You are wrong. Not all of us supported the war. I have no idea what you mean to imply by “believe that Bush will not leave their children behind” so I’ll leave that alone. Your remark with regards to Bill Clinton is just idiotic, I will allow that many members of the Church were appalled at his morality, even if they agreed with his politics.

“b: discouragement or punishment for any doubt or questioning of authority”  
We do place value on obedience. We try to teach our children to obey God and to be good citizens wherever they live. We believe loving correction is an essential part of a parents’s relationship with their children. We strive to be unified and consistent as parents. We try to think of discipline as a way to teach rather than as a punishment and we try to emulate Christ like love in our families. A quote from Brigham Young sums it up nicely

> [@](#):
>
> Bring up your children in the love and fear of the Lord; study their dispositions and their temperaments, and deal with them accordingly, never allowing yourself to correct them in the heat of passion; teach them to love you rather than to fear you” (Brigham Young).

With regards to unrighteous authority or abuse, President Hinckley teaches,

> [@](#):
>
> “We condemn most strongly abusive behavior in any form. We denounce the physical, sexual, verbal, or emotional abuse of one’s spouse or children. Our proclamation on the family declares: ‘Husband and wife have a solemn responsibility to love and care for each other and for their children. . . . Parents have a sacred duty to rear their children in love and righteousness, to provide for their physical and spiritual needs. . . . Husbands and wives—mothers and fathers—will be held accountable before God for the discharge of these obligations’” (Ensign, Nov. 1995, 102). . . .
> 
> "When there is recognition of equality between the husband and the wife, when there is acknowledgment that each child born into the world is a child of God, then there will follow a greater sense of responsibility to nurture, to help, to love with an enduring love those for whom we are responsible.
> 
> “No man who abuses his wife or children is worthy to hold the priesthood of God. No man who abuses his wife or children is worthy to be a member in good standing in this Church. The abuse of one’s spouse and children is a most serious offense before God, and any who indulge in it may expect to be disciplined by the Church” (Ensign, Nov. 1998, 72)."

> [@](#):
>
> c: a polarized “us vs. them” mindset  
> They are a schism and they know it. They claim that the Catholics are a cult and that all the Protestant groups outside of the US have it all wrong. Some rather absurd arguments attempt to appeal to the xenophobia of certain Americans. They do believe that Jesus will come to the US, meaning that after 2003 years, all Jesus really wants is a Big Mac and a large Coke.

None of the above is true. But I’ll ask you to provide cites anyway.

> [@](#):
>
> d: leadership is not accountable to any authority, either financially or morally  
> The Mormons have a strong influence in Utah. There is a rumored “Porn Czar” that monitors the flow of pornographic materials in and out of the state.

Your arguement is flawed. A strong influence in Utah does not equal a lack of accountabilty to “any authority”. As evidendence of moral accountability to governments our article of faith 12 of the basic beliefs of the church states “We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.” That we are morally accountable to live according to our belief in Christ is rather obvious. The church is financially sound and does not borrow money or mortgage it’s meeting houses or temples. I fail to see how that demonstrates a lack of financial accountability.

> [@](#):
>
> e: belief that “the ends justify the means” and readiness to use unethical means to achieve their goals  
> Sam Walton, a Mormon, owns Wal-Mart. 'Nuff said.

Sam Walton, is dead. I don’t see what your arguement is here, but even if it had merit, how does the manner in which one member runs a business, “evidence” that a with 11 and a half million members is unethical proof of your accusation?

> [@](#):
>
> f: requiring members to socialize only with members of the cult  
> Mormons at BYU, the big Mormon college in Utah, intermarry amonst other BYU students and Mormons. My former friend at BYU claims that 90% of young men get married by the time they return from their missions. Most of them pick up the freshmen girls that they date for \< 1 year and never have sex with. Marrige is the only place for them to express themselves sexually so there is a greater rush for marrige. However, you can only get married to one woman in most Mormon circles. Polygamy, or Mormon Hold 'Em, has been outlawed for a long time. BTW, when they do get married, only Mormons can attend the ceremony in the Temple, no regular sinners.

There are many people attending BYU who are not members of the church. 90% of the men are not married by the time they return from their missions because they are not allowed to date or marry while serving a mission. Members who have temple recommends can attend marriages and sealings in the temple. However you seem to be under the impression they are not sinners. Well guess what. I’m a sinner and I have a temple recommend. You do not have to be perfect to hold a temple recommend. Oh and I’m married to a non-member.

> [@](#):
>
> g: in more extreme cases, requiring members to cut ties completely with family or the outside community  
> My former friend is on his mission in Sao Paulo and I never hear from him. He decided to cut ties with most of his old friends after pressure from the church. In my case, I understand why. When he had his going-away party, I showed up with a massive hangover and reeking of booze. However, he has cut ties with everyone, even some people that thought they were close with the poor sap. Mormon girls are particularly protected, some are not allowed to go out with non-Mormon boys in any sort of circumstances.  
> I understand that other groups have similar restrictions but the LDS has them in a pronounced way. \*\*

I’m not surprised you don’t hear from someone you refer to as “my former friend” I wouldn’t keep in touch with you either. Your former friend is serving a mission for the Lord. In addition to 10-14 hours a week of studying, he/she is spending 60-65 hours a week teaching the gospel of Jesue Christ or in community service. I hate to break it to you bub, but it’s likely you encounter more members of the church than you realize on a daily basis. We’re everywhere. What kind of a friend where you that you would show up at a farewell gathering reeking of booze when you surely knew that it would distress your friend and his family? I suspect he cut ties with you all on his own because of your appalling behavior.

It’s kind of funny actually, you start off complaining that we go out into the world to recruit new members and end up complaining that we’re too insular. Can’t seem to make up your mind, huh?

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**Author:** ![AbbySthrnAccent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@AbbySthrnAccent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AbbySthrnAccent)\
**Post date:** [July 26, 2003, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cults-vs-lds/191043/4 "2003-07-26T08:21:03Z")

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Here are some sites with _accurate_ information about the church.

> **[The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/?lang=eng)**
>
> Official website of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Find messages of Christ to uplift your soul and invite the Spirit.

> **[Home | ComeUntoChrist](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/comeuntochrist)**
>
> Welcome to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. No matter your story, we welcome you to join us as we all try to be a little bit better, a little bit kinder, a little more helpful—because that’s what Jesus taught.

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**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\
**Post date:** [July 26, 2003, 9:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cults-vs-lds/191043/5 "2003-07-26T09:30:19Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> **ikderk** : e: belief that “the ends justify the means” and readiness to use unethical means to achieve their goals  
> Sam Walton, a Mormon, owns Wal-Mart. 'Nuff said.

To the best of my knowledge, Sam Walton was a Presbyterian. 'Nuff said.

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**Author:** ![BooksWoods](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e0b2c6/32.png) [@BooksWoods](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BooksWoods)\
**Post date:** [July 27, 2003, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cults-vs-lds/191043/6 "2003-07-27T03:32:25Z")

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Jon Krakauer (author of “Into Thin Air” and “Into the Wilderness”) just wrote a fascinating book about extremist fundamentalist Mormons. It has a lot of amazing details about “mainstream” Mormonism, too, which I thought was pretty incredible stuff. Nuff said.

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**Author:** ![Beryl\_Mooncalf\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9f8e36/32.png) [@Beryl\_Mooncalf\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beryl_Mooncalf_1)\
**Post date:** [July 27, 2003, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cults-vs-lds/191043/7 "2003-07-27T06:26:32Z")

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I didn’t read the book, but I heard a few things about it. I think this link proves that the American people are for law and order regardless of any religious undertones. I think he places responsibility on allowing this to happen on the LDS church. (I doubt that very much)  
Interesting value for the family business, 150 mil, that is 125,000 for each of the 1200 alleged members.  
Look at the latest news regarding this at the below link.  
[Go To Link](http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/West/07/26/polygamy.arrest.ap/index.html)

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![BooksWoods](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e0b2c6/32.png) [@BooksWoods](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BooksWoods)\
**Post date:** [July 27, 2003, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cults-vs-lds/191043/8 "2003-07-27T13:04:22Z")

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Beryl, although he does take a critical look at the mainstream Mormon church and its history in some places, Krakauer does _not_ blame the LDS for the actions of these extremists. He does openly examine religion, law, fanatacism and mental illness in some fascinating ways. I think you should read the book, then comment.

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**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\
**Post date:** [July 27, 2003, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cults-vs-lds/191043/9 "2003-07-27T20:39:11Z")

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There’s a borderline something or other here. The Staff Report in question deals with trying to distinguish between a church and a cult, so let’s keep this discussion on that subject in general.

Specific cases, like the LDS, should probably be discussed in Great Debates.

So, I’m going to allow this to continue, but let’s please focus on the difference between a church and a cult, not on the good and bad characteristics of the Mormon Church.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![BooksWoods](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e0b2c6/32.png) [@BooksWoods](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BooksWoods)\
**Post date:** [July 27, 2003, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cults-vs-lds/191043/10 "2003-07-27T21:02:52Z")

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I agree, CKDH, that this is not a good place to debate Mormonism. The questions raised by Krakauer’s book go beyond LDS, and address the gray areas between cults/religion/fanatasism and mental illness. These questions are not specific to Mormonism and I recommend this book to anyone who is interested in this topic.