# Cultural Appropriation and Art **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 21, 2013, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-and-art/661568 "2013-06-21T17:08:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![skylyn12](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5f8ce5/32.png) [@skylyn12](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/skylyn12)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2013, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-and-art/661568/1 "2013-06-21T17:08:07Z")
First time GD post starter, go easy… I came across this blog post: > **[On Miley Cyrus, Ratchet Culture and Accessorizing With Black People](https://jezebel.com/on-miley-cyrus-ratchet-culture-and-accessorizing-with-514381016)** > > For Jezebel’s 10th anniversary, we’re revisiting some classic posts from our archive. Here’s to the next ten. It is mainly a critique of Cyrus and the way (in this video) she is doing something wrong and stealing: " A lesson from Miley Cyrus’s new video: If you want to look “cool” and “edgy” and “tough,” just steal the styles and dance moves of black people. " The author elaborates that, “If Miley is inspired by gold teeth and bounce music and has friends who are rappers, that’s not a problem. But when she uses these things to re-style her own image, she veers into dangerous territory”. On the one hand, I certainly cringed a bit watching the video. Something feels wrong about it, but I don’t know what exactly. So I understand the author’s POV somewhat (I think). But… Saying she is stealing also feels wrong to me from artistic perspective. If she had grown up poor and in a minority neighborhood (she didn’t) would it still be an issue? If her mother was black, but everything else the same, would it change anything? If she was black, but grew up wealthy and in white neighborhoods, would it be an issue? I could see a problem is she was somehow appropriating the culture and using it to hurt the people she took it from, but what she is doing seems pretty harmless. Anyway, what say you? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2013, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-and-art/661568/2 "2013-06-21T18:04:56Z")
I think the problem is that it feels like just a pose. It reminds me of [Die Antwoord’s response](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIXUgtNC4Kc) to Lady Ga Ga asking them to tour with her. Die Antwoord are white South African rappers, but they’re not appropriating black culture, it’s just part of the merged white/black street scene that they come from. They saw Lady Ga Ga’s offer (rightly I think) as an attempt to co-opt zef as a fashion statement, stripping it all of the lived experience of the Cape Town people who created it. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2013, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-and-art/661568/3 "2013-06-21T18:19:58Z")
While I haven’t seen this particular example, “cultural appropriation” is a racist concept. If it’s copyright infringement, or plagiarism, fine, but call it what it is. Don’t pretend that some people don’t have the right to produce a particular style of art just because of the colour of their skin. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2013, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-and-art/661568/4 "2013-06-21T18:33:36Z")
IIRC, when Paul Simon came out with Graceland, he was accused by a number of critics of something amount to cultural appropriation, and rebuilding his career by exploiting the talents of other, South African musicians. In every interview I ever read of the South African musicians, they were happy that their music had reached the American (and thus, the worldwide) market, and they were much more in demand than they had ever been. If Simon exploited them, they exploited him as well. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2013, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-and-art/661568/5 "2013-06-21T18:36:04Z")
The author of the blog post seems to think we should literally ghettoise “ghetto” fashions and music. That if it leaves the ghetto and is adopted by anyone else it’s…well its not really clear. Bad because a lot of black people are incarcerated I guess? Stuff like minstrel shows and blackface were bad because they were built up from a tradition of mocking blacks. That’s not the case here. Traditions and styles moving up for lower class origins to middle and upper class styles is responsible for a huge amount of the art and music of the US. It’d be silly (and impossible) to stop that process, and the author of the blog post doesn’t even really articulate a clear reason why one would try. ---
**Author:** ![skylyn12](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5f8ce5/32.png) [@skylyn12](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/skylyn12)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2013, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-and-art/661568/6 "2013-06-21T18:48:13Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > I think the problem is that it feels like just a pose. > > It reminds me of [Die Antwoord’s response](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIXUgtNC4Kc) to Lady Ga Ga asking them to tour with her. Die Antwoord are white South African rappers, but they’re not appropriating black culture, it’s just part of the merged white/black street scene that they come from. They saw Lady Ga Ga’s offer (rightly I think) as an attempt to co-opt zef as a fashion statement, stripping it all of the lived experience of the Cape Town people who created it. So, if she had grown up on the streets and had been poor, etc., then the video would be okay? It is hard for me to judge art based on the background of the person rather than the art itself. Pretend you knew (and had no way of knowing) Cyrus’ background/history. How would you judge the video then? Obviously there are extreme cases where the artist’s own background (or whatever) distorts anything they produce/touch. ---
**Author:** ![TheSeaOtter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ed655f/32.png) [@TheSeaOtter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheSeaOtter)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2013, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-and-art/661568/7 "2013-06-21T18:53:18Z")
Artists draw inspiration from wherever they can, and that’s a feature, not a bug. “You used \ without understanding its context.” is a valid criticism. “You used \ but aren’t from \.” is not. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2013, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-and-art/661568/8 "2013-06-21T18:57:51Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > The author of the blog post seems to think we should literally ghettoise “ghetto” fashions and music. That if it leaves the ghetto and is adopted by anyone else it’s…well its not really clear. Bad because a lot of black people are incarcerated I guess? Are you sure you read the article? The author plainly states that if Miley really is into that music style, well, people should go with what moves them. But it doesn’t really look like she’s interested in the history or the meaning of these fashions and music beyond how she thinks they’ll influence her pop icon style. You don’t have to listen very hard to Graceland to see that Paul Simon was genuinely keen on south african music traditions and worked very hard to incorporate them into his style. Miley Cyrus sang a song originally written for Rihanna. Adapting bits and pieces to create a unique style is worthwhile. Slavish copying is not. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2013, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-and-art/661568/9 "2013-06-21T19:01:37Z")
… and here I was all set to argue about the Elgin Marbles. Nevermind; pop music is not one of my areas of knowledge so my uninformed opinion is not worth recording. ---
**Author:** ![skylyn12](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5f8ce5/32.png) [@skylyn12](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/skylyn12)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2013, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-and-art/661568/10 "2013-06-21T19:02:24Z")
> [@TheSeaOtter](#): > > Artists draw inspiration from wherever they can, and that’s a feature, not a bug. > > “You used \ without understanding its context.” is a valid criticism. > > “You used \ but aren’t from \.” is not. In this case, which do you think it was? Can you truly understand the context if you are not part of the culture? How much understanding do you need (i.e., do you just need a brief intro course or do you need a Phd)? How would you properly gain it? I certainly don’t think she was mocking the culture she is accused of appropriating, but she probably doesn’t have a deep understanding of its context either. And, I think that shows in the video, it isn’t very entertaining or original and is kinda tacky. So shouldn’t we just dismiss her art (and say it stinks) rather than accuse her of grander things like theft? ---
**Author:** ![skylyn12](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5f8ce5/32.png) [@skylyn12](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/skylyn12)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2013, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-and-art/661568/11 "2013-06-21T19:04:30Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > Are you sure you read the article? The author plainly states that if Miley really is into that music style, well, people should go with what moves them. But it doesn’t really look like she’s interested in the history or the meaning of these fashions and music beyond how she thinks they’ll influence her pop icon style. > > You don’t have to listen very hard to Graceland to see that Paul Simon was genuinely keen on south african music traditions and worked very hard to incorporate them into his style. Miley Cyrus sang a song originally written for Rihanna. Adapting bits and pieces to create a unique style is worthwhile. Slavish copying is not. Yes, but she is not being accused of copying. Lots of artist copy (I think there is a saying regarding that…). She is being accused of theft and cultural appropriation. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2013, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-and-art/661568/12 "2013-06-21T19:18:31Z")
Imitation being the highest form of flattery is not the same as imitation being a laudable goal. She _has_ appropriated another culture, unless you think the music video just sorta fell on her out of the sky? The question is, is it ever ok to take on aspects of a culture other than your birth culture and if so, is that true unreservedly? ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2013, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-and-art/661568/13 "2013-06-21T19:26:20Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > Are you sure you read the article? Twice, trying to tease out what the actual argument was, to no avail. > [@](#): > > The author plainly states that if Miley really is into that music style, well, people should go with what moves them. But it doesn’t really look like she’s interested in the history or the meaning of these fashions and music beyond how she thinks they’ll influence her pop icon style. Not sure how one would know that. > [@](#): > > You don’t have to listen very hard to Graceland to see that Paul Simon was genuinely keen on south african music traditions and worked very hard to incorporate them into his style. Miley Cyrus sang a song originally written for Rihanna. Adapting bits and pieces to create a unique style is worthwhile. Slavish copying is not. Yea, but if Rihanna had performed the song, she wouldn’t have written it either. I don’t see how Miley is “slavishly copying” anymore then Rihanna would have been. Pop-stars in general don’t write their own music. (Plus Rihanna grew up in Barbados, I’m not sure she has any greater claim to the cultural heritage of poor blacks in the US then Cyrus does.) ---
**Author:** ![skylyn12](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5f8ce5/32.png) [@skylyn12](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/skylyn12)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2013, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-and-art/661568/14 "2013-06-21T19:28:26Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > Imitation being the highest form of flattery is not the same as imitation being a laudable goal. She _has_ appropriated another culture, unless you think the music video just sorta fell on her out of the sky? > > The question is, is it ever ok to take on aspects of a culture other than your birth culture and if so, is that true unreservedly? I guess, but the term has taken on a negative connotation. Instead of being influenced by other cultures, she ‘appropriated’ other cultures. See: Paul Simon was influenced by South African music. Paul Simon appropriated South African Music. One seems neutral, or even good, the other, not so much. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2013, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-and-art/661568/15 "2013-06-21T19:36:00Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > Yea, but if Rihanna had performed the song, she wouldn’t have written it either. I don’t see how Miley is “slavishly copying” anymore then Rihanna would have been. Pop-stars in general don’t write their own music. Ask me how much respect I have for Rihanna’s artistic integrity. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2013, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-and-art/661568/16 "2013-06-21T19:40:28Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > The question is, is it ever ok to take on aspects of a culture other than your birth culture and if so, is that true unreservedly? Well, not unreservedly. As I said, something like a minsteral show where the point is to mock the culture is probably a no-no, especially a culture that has a history of being oppressed like that of African Americans. But other then that, I think its a good thing. Would the world be better off if Yo-Yo Ma stuck to classical Chinese instruments, Elvis only sang Gregorian Hymns and Bob Dylan stuck to Klezimer music? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2013, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-and-art/661568/17 "2013-06-21T22:20:35Z")
> [@skylyn12](#): > > So, if she had grown up on the streets and had been poor, etc., then the video would be okay? She doesn’t have to have grown up on the streets, but it does need to reflect her evolution as a performer. If she actually wants to become part of that scene and own it, good for her. But considering her past as a pampered country and western singer and Disney TV star, her abrupt appropriation of street attitude feels facile. > [@](#): > > It is hard for me to judge art based on the background of the person rather than the art itself. Pretend you knew (and had no way of knowing) Cyrus’ background/history. How would you judge the video then? A crappy suburban poseur trying to look hip. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2013, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-and-art/661568/18 "2013-06-21T22:29:20Z")
The idea that no one can practice any sort of art that doesn’t come directly out of their ethnic background is a strawman. No one is saying that white people can’t ever adopt any part of non-white culture. But there is a line where that sort of adoption becomes insulting, condescending, or just really, really tacky. Whether or not an individual has crossed that line, and how far over it they’ve gone, is obviously very subjective. Miley Cyrus is trying to ditch the Disney Princess image, and present herself as someone tough, sexy, and maybe a little bit dangerous. She’s doing this by adopting the style and mannerisms of a certain subset of poor black culture. The problem is, that subset of black culture has a reputation as being tough, sexy, and maybe a little bit dangerous because they’ve had to live through some fucked up shit to get where they are. Miley’s trying to claim ghetto street cred, without ever having to deal with ghetto bullshit. People who have to deal with ghetto bullshit every day find that justifiably irksome. (I suspect they’d phrase that more bluntly.) There’s actually a bit in the video that works pretty well as an analogy for this. In the bits shot at a pool party, there’s one woman who has a bit of paper with the word “CENSORED” taped over her mouth. Why is that in there? Who the fuck has ever tried to censor Miley Cyrus? Her career to date has been so bland and inoffensive, I’m pretty sure Osama bin Laden had her on his iPod. Oh, and bonus points for Sexy Wrestling with her ladyfriend at the end. Might as well throw in a little faux-lesbianism to get the trifecta, right? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2013, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-and-art/661568/19 "2013-06-21T22:31:58Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > She doesn’t have to have grown up on the streets, but it does need to reflect her evolution as a performer. If she actually wants to become part of that scene and own it, good for her. But considering her past as a pampered country and western singer and Disney TV star, her abrupt appropriation of street attitude feels facile. So facile, it becomes a caricature. If someone from a background as dissimilar as hers can so easily assimilate into that culture, it strongly implies that that culture must have been very shallow to begin with. “All I have to do is slip a grill in and put on some tight pants, and I’m totally a gangsta! That’s all there is to it!” ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2013, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-and-art/661568/20 "2013-06-21T22:47:30Z")
Fellow Disney… alumna Selena Gomez [was in trouble for “appropriating” the bindi](http://www.billboard.com/articles/columns/the-hook/1563147/selena-gomezs-bindi-styling-offensive-bollywood-star-priyanka) last month. It was a stupid complaint then and it’s a stupid complaint now. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-and-art/661568.md?page=2)