# Cultural Appropriation and Art **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 21, 2013, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-and-art/661568 "2013-06-21T17:08:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![miss\_elizabeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@miss\_elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miss_elizabeth)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2013, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-and-art/661568/21 "2013-06-21T22:51:56Z")
The board that couldn’t agree on the existence of White Privilege has decided to tackle cultural appropriation. Lord help us. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2013, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-and-art/661568/22 "2013-06-21T23:27:22Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > Ask me how much respect I have for Rihanna’s artistic integrity. You brought it up. Are you now conceding that you’re not quite sure of the argument you mean to make (which is why you’ve turned around and dismissed as unimportant a point you first introduced) and are instead “slavishly copying” some buzzwords your you once heard in your colonial studies colloquium? ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2013, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-and-art/661568/23 "2013-06-21T23:48:22Z")
Rihanna’s ties to the community and culture are stronger than Miley’s and she has other works of a similar sound even if she does not write her own songs and the ones she does perform are superficial at best. Miley looks like a fucking joke in that video, it’s embarrassing. At least Rihanna can twerk. edit: I’ve never taken a colonial studies colloquium or any other "white guilt’ classes you’re so ineptly attempting to reference. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2013, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-and-art/661568/24 "2013-06-21T23:49:56Z")
n/m ---
**Author:** ![skylyn12](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5f8ce5/32.png) [@skylyn12](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/skylyn12)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2013, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-and-art/661568/25 "2013-06-21T23:53:50Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > She doesn’t have to have grown up on the streets, but it does need to reflect her evolution as a performer. If she actually wants to become part of that scene and own it, good for her. But considering her past as a pampered country and western singer and Disney TV star, her abrupt appropriation of street attitude feels facile. > > A crappy suburban poseur trying to look hip. So her background and evolution are the problem? How much time studying and evolving would she need to do before the video is not theft? Do we know whether she is trying to really evolve or are we just assuming she isn’t? I agree the video does come off as a poseurish, not sure if that is because of the content or because of what I assume about her. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2013, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-and-art/661568/26 "2013-06-21T23:59:26Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > n/m I agreed with it, fwiw. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2013, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-and-art/661568/27 "2013-06-22T00:03:31Z")
Devil’s Advocate (I don’t actually have an opinion about this): Does art have room for a chameleon? Someone who can’t be pigeon-holed into one particular style or culture at any given time? Or how about an artist who abruptly ditches one style–perhaps something that didn’t work for them too well–and adopts something completely different I’m thinking of Alanis Morrisette. She got her start busting moves like Paula Abdul and trying to wail like Taylor Dayne. Then she morphed into the Alanis Morrisette that we know and (kinda) love. How do we decide which is genuine? ---
**Author:** ![skylyn12](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5f8ce5/32.png) [@skylyn12](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/skylyn12)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2013, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-and-art/661568/28 "2013-06-22T00:04:21Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > The idea that no one can practice any sort of art that doesn’t come directly out of their ethnic background is a strawman. No one is saying that white people can’t ever adopt any part of non-white culture. But there is a line where that sort of adoption becomes insulting, condescending, or just really, really tacky. Whether or not an individual has crossed that line, and how far over it they’ve gone, is obviously very subjective. > > Miley Cyrus is trying to ditch the Disney Princess image, and present herself as someone tough, sexy, and maybe a little bit dangerous. She’s doing this by adopting the style and mannerisms of a certain subset of poor black culture. The problem is, that subset of black culture has a reputation as being tough, sexy, and maybe a little bit dangerous because they’ve had to live through some fucked up shit to get where they are. Miley’s trying to claim ghetto street cred, without ever having to deal with ghetto bullshit. People who have to deal with ghetto bullshit every day find that justifiably irksome. (I suspect they’d phrase that more bluntly.) > > There’s actually a bit in the video that works pretty well as an analogy for this. In the bits shot at a pool party, there’s one woman who has a bit of paper with the word “CENSORED” taped over her mouth. Why is that in there? Who the fuck has ever tried to censor Miley Cyrus? Her career to date has been so bland and inoffensive, I’m pretty sure Osama bin Laden had her on his iPod. > > Oh, and bonus points for Sexy Wrestling with her ladyfriend at the end. Might as well throw in a little faux-lesbianism to get the trifecta, right? I agree there has to be a line that can be crossed, but really, are we setting the bar this low for the crossover into OMG Cultural Appropriation! Culture theft! Can’t it just be tacky and poseurish and leave it at that? Or is this really the line? And, correct me if I am wrong, I am not sure you or I have enough street cred to decide whether someone else has enough street cred. Didn’t she do work with Snoop Dog? He seems (I would assume) to have more cred then you are I, correct? ---
**Author:** ![Aquadementia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aquadementia/32/555_2.png) [@Aquadementia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aquadementia)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2013, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-and-art/661568/29 "2013-06-22T00:23:09Z")
What makes me wonder is what part of that anyone wants to claim as their cultural heritage. It has to be hard on the parents that dreamed of seeing their daughters dance like strippers only to have a white girl simulating sex acts that one of their own should be simulating. What do you call this, hoochie gentrification? ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2013, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-and-art/661568/30 "2013-06-22T00:37:09Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > The idea that no one can practice any sort of art that doesn’t come directly out of their ethnic background is a strawman. No one is saying that white people can’t ever adopt any part of non-white culture. But there is a line where that sort of adoption becomes insulting, condescending, or just really, really tacky. Whether or not an individual has crossed that line, and how far over it they’ve gone, is obviously very subjective. > > Miley Cyrus is trying to ditch the Disney Princess image, and present herself as someone tough, sexy, and maybe a little bit dangerous. She’s doing this by adopting the style and mannerisms of a certain subset of poor black culture. The problem is, that subset of black culture has a reputation as being tough, sexy, and maybe a little bit dangerous because they’ve had to live through some fucked up shit to get where they are. Miley’s trying to claim ghetto street cred, without ever having to deal with ghetto bullshit. People who have to deal with ghetto bullshit every day find that justifiably irksome. (I suspect they’d phrase that more bluntly.) > > There’s actually a bit in the video that works pretty well as an analogy for this. In the bits shot at a pool party, there’s one woman who has a bit of paper with the word “CENSORED” taped over her mouth. Why is that in there? Who the fuck has ever tried to censor Miley Cyrus? Her career to date has been so bland and inoffensive, I’m pretty sure Osama bin Laden had her on his iPod. > > Oh, and bonus points for Sexy Wrestling with her ladyfriend at the end. Might as well throw in a little faux-lesbianism to get the trifecta, right? So are you saying that AA’s coming from affluent or middle class neighborhoods are equaqlly open to criticism? How bout Latinos? Asians? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2013, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-and-art/661568/31 "2013-06-22T00:49:51Z")
> [@Aquadementia](#): > > What do you call this, hoochie gentrification? I think you just gave her the name for her next concert tour! ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2013, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-and-art/661568/32 "2013-06-22T02:53:33Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > But other then that, I think its a good thing. Would the world be better off if Yo-Yo Ma stuck to classical Chinese instruments, Elvis only sang Gregorian Hymns and Bob Dylan stuck to Klezimer music? And if your ancestors were African you’re not allowed to write novels. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2013, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-and-art/661568/33 "2013-06-22T05:45:20Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > The idea that no one can practice any sort of art that doesn’t come directly out of their ethnic background is a strawman. No one is saying that white people can’t ever adopt any part of non-white culture. But there is a line where that sort of adoption becomes insulting, condescending, or just really, really tacky. Whether or not an individual has crossed that line, and how far over it they’ve gone, is obviously very subjective. > > Miley Cyrus is trying to ditch the Disney Princess image, and present herself as someone tough, sexy, and maybe a little bit dangerous. She’s doing this by adopting the style and mannerisms of a certain subset of poor black culture. The problem is, that subset of black culture has a reputation as being tough, sexy, and maybe a little bit dangerous because they’ve had to live through some fucked up shit to get where they are. Miley’s trying to claim ghetto street cred, without ever having to deal with ghetto bullshit. People who have to deal with ghetto bullshit every day find that justifiably irksome. (I suspect they’d phrase that more bluntly.) > > There’s actually a bit in the video that works pretty well as an analogy for this. In the bits shot at a pool party, there’s one woman who has a bit of paper with the word “CENSORED” taped over her mouth. Why is that in there? Who the fuck has ever tried to censor Miley Cyrus? Her career to date has been so bland and inoffensive, I’m pretty sure Osama bin Laden had her on his iPod. > > Oh, and bonus points for Sexy Wrestling with her ladyfriend at the end. Might as well throw in a little faux-lesbianism to get the trifecta, right? Does this work both ways? Can you explain what is wrong with the following criticsim? No one is saying that Black people can’t ever adopt any part of non-Black culture. But there is a line where that sort of adoption becomes insulting, condescending, or just really, really tacky. Whether or not an individual has crossed that line, and how far over it they’ve gone, is obviously very subjective. Will Smith is trying to ditch the Hood image, and present himself as someone disciplined, educated and a little bit conservative. He’s doing this by adopting the style and mannerisms of a certain subset of middle-class White culture. The problem is, that subset of White culture has a reputation as being disciplined, educated and a little bit conservative because they’ve been brought up with discipline, educational values and work ethic where they are. Smith’s trying to claim middle class cred, without ever having to deal with middle class discipline, education or work. People who have to deal with discipline, education and work every day find that justifiably irksome. (I suspect they’d phrase that more bluntly. Would that be a fair criticism to throw at any Black artist who sheds the “Hood” image for a more middle-class image? Or would you perceive that as being as racist as I do? Because IMO there is no such thing as an owned culture. I don’t find it irksome when some minority celebrity from “The Hood” starts speaking standard English, wearing suits and acting like a middle class white person. And that’s because I don’t own that culture. It’s the way that I choose to live, but that doesn’t mean that nobody else has the right to portray themselves that way. And I am able to live that that way because I worked an studied hard and had to put up with all that “self-discipline” stuff when I was growing up. But that doesn’t mean that I find it objectionable when will Smith simply adopts it as part of his image because his agent told him to do so, without needing to do any work for it. And I couldn’t care if, at home, Will Smith is a dope smoking, wife-beating, philanderer with a dozen bastard children, with no work ethic who speaks in ebonics so broad that I would need a jive translator to understand him. If he wants a public image as a stable, middle class family man, I don’t find that irksome, because I don’t own that culture just because it’s associated with my demographic. The idea that people have to portray themselves as being from the culture they were born into until they have "earned the right to portray themselves otherwise is ridiculous. The idea that I have can be justifiably irked by a poor person portraying themselves as stable and middle class at a job interview, just because they have never had to put up with the crap that actual middle class have, is so laughably elitist that it would make a good comedy sketch. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2013, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-and-art/661568/34 "2013-06-22T06:57:03Z")
I dunno. I ruthlessly scrutinize every aspect of my persona to make sure it is strictly rooted in Anglo-Saxon culture going back at least 1500 years. I know, I know, I’m a bit of a piker by only going back that far, but I do my best. I"ve purged all such expressions as “yo” and “truth out” from my speech. No cultural thief am I. My next post will be completely in Old English. Oh, wait. Some of my ancestors were from Eastern Europe. Shit, I need to start all over again! ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2013, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-and-art/661568/35 "2013-06-22T07:00:01Z")
> [@skylyn12](#): > > I agree there has to be a line that can be crossed, but really, are we setting the bar this low for the crossover into OMG Cultural Appropriation! Culture theft! Can’t it just be tacky and poseurish and leave it at that? Or is this really the line? That’s an interesting question, because to me, there’s really not much of a difference between calling her a poseur, and accusing her of cultural appropriation. They’re pretty much the same thing, one’s just dressed up in fancy language. > [@](#): > > And, correct me if I am wrong, I am not sure you or I have enough street cred to decide whether someone else has enough street cred. Didn’t she do work with Snoop Dog? He seems (I would assume) to have more cred then you are I, correct? I don’t think you need to have a thing, to recognize when someone else doesn’t have a thing. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2013, 10:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-and-art/661568/36 "2013-06-22T10:29:15Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > My next post will be completely in Old English. Runes. I demand that you post in runes, lest I find your cultural appropriation irksome. ---
**Author:** ![skylyn12](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5f8ce5/32.png) [@skylyn12](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/skylyn12)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2013, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-and-art/661568/37 "2013-06-22T11:16:34Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > That’s an interesting question, because to me, there’s really not much of a difference between calling her a poseur, and accusing her of cultural appropriation. They’re pretty much the same thing, one’s just dressed up in fancy language. > > I don’t think you need to have a thing, to recognize when someone else doesn’t have a thing. So if she had gone a punk route we could still call her a poseur **or** accuse her of cultural appropriation (since they are the same)? I don’t agree, but I just want to see how far the term goes. I think only someone with street cred decides who has cred, not you or I (though this is starting to sound silly). ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2013, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-and-art/661568/38 "2013-06-22T11:52:07Z")
I dance like a white man, thinking about it worse ! I dance like a dad, when Dancing Queen comes on at the wedding. But I’m afraid that this didn’t advance my chances of getting off with a female any. So sorry “Nil pointe !”. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2013, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-and-art/661568/39 "2013-06-22T12:46:33Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I’m thinking of Alanis Morrisette. She got her start busting moves like Paula Abdul and trying to wail like Taylor Dayne. Then she morphed into the Alanis Morrisette that we know and (kinda) love. How do we decide which is genuine? I think part of the problem is that people forget that singers are performers and instead expect them to live up to their lyrics. I’ve heard people complain that Katy Perry is fake because she doesn’t behave in her personal life like she does when she performs. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2013, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-and-art/661568/40 "2013-06-22T13:09:53Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > I think part of the problem is that people forget that singers are performers and instead expect them to live up to their lyrics. I’ve heard people complain that Katy Perry is fake because she doesn’t behave in her personal life like she does when she performs. Right, exactly. Miley Cyrus’ pre-ratchet/ghetto persona was no more the real her than this one is. All performance, and mainstream pop in particular, is rooted in a persona that isn’t exactly the same as who the performer really is. The real failing of Cyrus’ new work isn’t cultural appropriation, since that’s part of art and always has been, and more than that it’s an idea rooted in racism. No, Cyrus’ failing is _inauthenticity_, it feels fake, a put-on. This primes the audience to reject it, as authenticity is among the most valuable commodities a performer can possess. We all know that who, say, Madonna or Katy Perry or Adele are on stage isn’t who they “really” are, but the more convincing and natural they seem on stage, the easier it is to forget this and thus enjoy the performance on a deeper level. When the persona clashes with the performer, like Miley Cyrus here, there’s a disconnect between audience and performer. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-and-art/661568.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-and-art/661568.md?page=3)