# Cultural Appropriation and Art **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 21, 2013, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-and-art/661568 "2013-06-21T17:08:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2013, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-and-art/661568/41 "2013-06-22T13:34:58Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Right, exactly. Miley Cyrus’ pre-ratchet/ghetto persona was no more the real her than this one is. All performance, and mainstream pop in particular, is rooted in a persona that isn’t exactly the same as who the performer really is. Hasn’t Cyrus’ real persona been “squeaky clean kid who tries to push boundaries”? There was the “I just had sex” pictures at 14… I think… 15, maybe. There was the “I love weed” phase. Now there’s this tough girl stuff. There was always the Disney side but there was also always the “I hate this squeaky clean stuff” side. Oh, and when was Will Smith ever “Hood”? The man grew up middle class and would have gone on to a fancy college if he didn’t discover music and acting. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2013, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-and-art/661568/42 "2013-06-22T13:41:35Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > Hasn’t Cyrus’ real persona been “squeaky clean kid who tries to push boundaries”? There was the “I just had sex” pictures at 14… I think… 15, maybe. There was the “I love weed” phase. Now there’s this tough girl stuff. There was always the Disney side but there was also always the “I hate this squeaky clean stuff” side. We have no idea what her real persona is, since we know her through her art. What you’re describing is just _a_ persona, almost certainly not her real one, though it may or may not be closer to who she really is than what she’s doing now. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2013, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-and-art/661568/43 "2013-06-22T13:45:32Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > That’s an interesting question, because to me, there’s really not much of a difference between calling her a poseur, and accusing her of cultural appropriation. They’re pretty much the same thing, one’s just dressed up in fancy language. I disagree. Appropriation has the connotation of “theft” to it. A poseur is someone who basically “goes somewhere” he is not welcomed, but cultural appropriation implies you’ve taken something that doesn’t belong to you. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2013, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-and-art/661568/44 "2013-06-22T13:48:58Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I disagree. Appropriation has the connotation of “theft” to it. A poseur is someone who basically “goes somewhere” he is not welcomed, but cultural appropriation implies you’ve taken something that doesn’t belong to you. Agreed. “Poseur” equates to “inauthentic”: presenting oneself as a type of person without actually being that type of person. “Cultural appropriation” goes beyond playing at being a goth/emo/hipster/thug/preppy/whatever; it connotes that the person _can’t_ authentically embrace the culture in question, and thus has stolen it. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2013, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-and-art/661568/45 "2013-06-22T14:24:44Z")
Christina Aguilera did the same thing a few years ago in the not safe for work Dirrty. It was just as awkward and Furry filled, and as far as I can tell Aguilera never revisited the theme. Then again Madonna was all over the place musically and we bought her ever-shifting style as innovative. But I can’t really put my finger on why I view Madonna’s experiments as edgy and Miley’s as inauthentic. Maybe it’s the posse of fawning twerkers that ruin it for me. I feel like most observers would laugh at the ex Disney star’s attempt to jiggle her non existent booty. And the song is just dreadful. Remember when she covered Dolly’s Jolene? She can sing, she just chose not to on this one. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2013, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-and-art/661568/46 "2013-06-22T15:21:35Z")
Have any of you watched the video? Seriously, put the keyboard down and watch the darn video before you start spouting off. I’m an still cringing. The video was embarrassing, because she was dressed in costume and using a culture as props, with absolutely no hint of self-awareness. It’s as embarrassing as me making a video where I pranced around a bunch of Jewish bankers while they schemed. This particular video wasn’t like a white suburban kid playing the blues. It’s like a white suburban kid peppering his conversation with “Hey homie G Wazzzup, N-r?” And frankly, that’s pretty much the effect this sort of thing has. I’ve got some teenage relatives that can’t figure out why it’s not cool to fill their conversation with exaggerated pseudo-gangster talk. They are going to embarrass themselves real hard when they get to college and are actually around black people. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2013, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-and-art/661568/47 "2013-06-22T15:23:57Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > It’s as embarrassing as me making a video where I pranced around a bunch of Jewish bankers while they schemed. _Please_ tell me this is in the pipeline. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2013, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-and-art/661568/48 "2013-06-22T23:53:43Z")
This particular video wasn’t like a Black urban kid playing classical. It’s like a Black urban kid peppering his conversation with “Good morning sir, how are you?” And frankly, that’s pretty much the effect this sort of thing has. I’ve got some teenage relatives that can’t figure out why it’s not cool to fill their conversation with exaggerated preppie talk. They are going to embarrass themselves real hard when they get to college and are actually around White people. Yeah, that’s not racist at all. ---
**Author:** ![Among\_Liberals](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Among\_Liberals](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Among_Liberals)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2013, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-and-art/661568/49 "2013-06-23T01:01:32Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Have any of you watched the video? Seriously, put the keyboard down and watch the darn video before you start spouting off. > > I’m an still cringing. The video was embarrassing, because she was dressed in costume and using a culture as props, with absolutely no hint of self-awareness. It’s as embarrassing as me making a video where I pranced around a bunch of Jewish bankers while they schemed. > > This particular video wasn’t like a white suburban kid playing the blues. It’s like a white suburban kid peppering his conversation with “Hey homie G Wazzzup, N-r?” And frankly, that’s pretty much the effect this sort of thing has. I’ve got some teenage relatives that can’t figure out why it’s not cool to fill their conversation with exaggerated pseudo-gangster talk. They are going to embarrass themselves real hard when they get to college and are actually around black people. Aside from the casual use of nigger, what is wrong with how they speak? What if that’s the vernacular of their social circle? A very large number of “white suburban kids” listen to hip-hop and rap, where that kind of vernacular is common. Are they supposed to speak differently than the language they commonly hear and is commonly reinforced by the things they participate in (social circle, music, movies, etc.)? You’re like a Spaniard who lives in the North of Spain traveling to the South and going, “Wow, this is embarrassing Spanish.” It is markedly different, but it’s not less valid because it’s not the same. They’re all just trying to _speak_. It may make you cringe, but I don’t see why that should be a damnation. It’s hard to prove that someone is speaking as they are because they just super duper want to “sound black” or if that is genuinely how the words flow from their minds. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2013, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-and-art/661568/50 "2013-06-23T02:20:18Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > This particular video wasn’t like a Black urban kid playing classical. It’s like a Black urban kid peppering his conversation with “Good morning sir, how are you?” And frankly, that’s pretty much the effect this sort of thing has. I’ve got some teenage relatives that can’t figure out why it’s not cool to fill their conversation with exaggerated preppie talk. They are going to embarrass themselves real hard when they get to college and are actually around White people. > > Yeah, that’s not racist at all. A better metaphor would be upper class black kids deciding to dress like a character out of My Name is Earl and greeting each other with “Howdy, Reb. How’s the meth lab?” ---
**Author:** ![romadea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b4bc9f/32.png) [@romadea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/romadea)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2013, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-and-art/661568/51 "2013-06-23T05:15:49Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > A better metaphor would be upper class black kids deciding to dress like a character out of My Name is Earl and greeting each other with “Howdy, Reb. How’s the meth lab?” Poor black people are just cooler than poor white people. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2013, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-and-art/661568/52 "2013-06-23T05:46:05Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > A better metaphor would be upper class black kids deciding to dress like a character out of My Name is Earl and greeting each other with “Howdy, Reb. How’s the meth lab?” Why would that be better? Is a poor Black person adopting preppie culture somehow not cultural appropriation? Or is this another case of where Black people can’t be racist, as the author of the article claims? ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2013, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-and-art/661568/53 "2013-06-23T11:42:39Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > Why would that be better? Is a poor Black person adopting preppie culture somehow not cultural appropriation? > > Or is this another case of where Black people can’t be racist, as the author of the article claims? OK, then picture a bunch of poor black kids going to school in ascots and riding boots and greeting each other with “Fine day, old sport! I do say it is a lovely day on the greens.” Like my previous examples, they’d get laughed out of town when they get to college. It’s the difference between the transgender person who puts on a dress and heads to work, the drag queen who wears a thoughtful exaggeration of certain types of femininity, and the frat boy who goes to party in smeared lipstick and grotesquely exaggerated balloon breasts and spends the whole evening saying “Hey look I’ve got tiiiiiiiiiits!! Who wants to touch my titties? Aren’t I a hot little bitch?” One is being a woman, one is commentary on gender expectations, and one is mocking femininity to get attention. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2013, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-and-art/661568/54 "2013-06-23T15:46:12Z")
> [@skylyn12](#): > > So her background and evolution are the problem? How much time studying and evolving would she need to do before the video is not theft? Do we know whether she is trying to really evolve or are we just assuming she isn’t? > > I agree the video does come off as a poseurish, not sure if that is because of the content or because of what I assume about her. You answer your questions yourself. If Ms. Cyrus doesn’t want to come off as a poseur, she needs to do more work than she did. She’s absolutely allowed to reinvent herself as a different sort of artist, but if she wants people to take that reinvention seriously, it needs to consist of more than playing dress up. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2013, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-and-art/661568/55 "2013-06-23T16:58:43Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > A better metaphor would be upper class black kids deciding to dress like a character out of My Name is Earl and greeting each other with “Howdy, Reb. How’s the meth lab?” We all know that Camden County seceded from both the Union and the Confederacy. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2013, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-and-art/661568/56 "2013-06-23T17:00:43Z")
Miley Cyrus wasn’t raised in black culture to any extent at all that I know of. Will Smith, and every other black person in the US (with some exceptions of course, don’t take the generalization literally), was raised in white culture to a great extent. You basically can’t live in the US or Europe without being raised in white culture, even as you are also raised in your own subculture. This is why Miley Cyrus comes off as posing here, while Will Smith does not. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2013, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-and-art/661568/57 "2013-06-23T17:19:46Z")
I think we can all agree that Miley is posing. But who cares? Cultural appropriation and posing are not synonymous. I think cultural appropriation as a general concept is fairly neutral in that it can be positive or negative. How annoyed do Native Americans get with the New Age movements adoption of their symbols and aspects of their spiritual beliefs? On the flip side I doubt there’s many people in the western world who would get annoyed at seeing a Chinese wedding where the bride and groom are dressed in traditional western clothing. At the very least I think we can all agree that no white person should wear dread locks or cornrows. Seriously, if Bo Derek can’t make cornrows work then no white person can. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2013, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-and-art/661568/58 "2013-06-23T18:01:33Z")
This black woman has no problem with white folks sporting braids or cornrows. Seems to me white folk sometimes go overboard with the cultural gate-keeping stuff. I actually think Miley’s baby thug persona looks like cool. I’m digging the hair. Perhaps she’s positioning herself to be a cross-over act for the new generation-fusing country and hip-hop into an _interesting_ meld of sounds that will make everyone scream. I’m not going to be buying any concert tickets, but I’m not really thinking kids really care who is singing at them as long as the beat is good. All the “cultural appropriation” stuff is for the old fuddy-duddies who aren’t into Miley anyway. Miley probably is poseur. But I don’t know what kind of secret life she lives. Maybe she regularly hangs out at the stripper club with rapper friends. It’s possible. So I’m not going to judge. Does anyone hear listen to [Robin Thicke](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Robin_Thicke_2012_cropped.jpg)? He’s another rich white kid of famous parentage, but somehow he escapes the “poseur” label. So it can be done. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2013, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-and-art/661568/59 "2013-06-23T18:30:24Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > This black woman has no problem with white folks sporting braids or cornrows. Even when they [look really, really bad](http://www.cinemablend.com/images/sections/1880/_1880.jpg)? ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2013, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-and-art/661568/60 "2013-06-23T18:34:02Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > This black woman has no problem with white folks sporting braids or cornrows. Seems to me white folk sometimes go overboard with the cultural gate-keeping stuff. Oh, my issue with them has nothing to do with cultural appropriation and everything to do with aesthetic taste. I have yet to see a white person make those particular hair styles look good whereas plenty of black people rock the look just fine. I’m no gatekeeper. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-and-art/661568.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-and-art/661568.md?page=4)