# Cultural appropriation: identity politics gone mad? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 7, 2018, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-identity-politics-gone-mad/817475 "2018-07-07T15:39:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2018, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-identity-politics-gone-mad/817475/41 "2018-07-10T17:51:17Z")
> [@Anne\_Neville](#): > > The problems come when you imitate it in a disrespectful way. How is that any different from using your own cultural norms in a disrespectful way? Yes, if you’re targeting another race it can become racism, but isn’t racism primarily disrespect for other races? ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2018, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-identity-politics-gone-mad/817475/42 "2018-07-10T17:58:26Z")
My problem with “cultural appropriation” is that people go looking for it or accuse others of it for benign things. Really, 99% of the “bad” appropriation can be covered by “Don’t be a dick”. Running around in some culture’s sacred garb for kicks? Being a dick. Wearing dreadlocks or cornrow braids? Go for it. I won’t pretend that there’ll never be an argument over “Is this being a dick?” but it beats people losing their shit over hoop earrings or acoustic coffeehouse covers of hip-hop songs. ---
**Author:** ![xnylder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/bbce88/32.png) [@xnylder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xnylder)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2018, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-identity-politics-gone-mad/817475/43 "2018-07-10T19:10:51Z")
I’m white, but I live in Montreal, so I’ll address this specific issue: Yes Slav is a problem. It’s a symptom of the systemic discrimination against people of color that happens here. In a city as diverse as Montreal, there’s a shameful lack of people of color on stage. Several theater companies include no people of color at all, and smaller companies dedicated to people of color (like the Black Theatre Workshop), rarely get the exposure of the majority-white troupes. We even still have blackface going on: in one recent example, a company that puts on year-end comedy revues chose to “black up” a white actor to play P.K. Subban. And it’s no better behind the scenes: Very few people of color are involved in theater production or direction. Given this shortage of opportunities for people of color to be heard, it’s frustrating to see Betty Bonifassi and Robert Lepage co-opt black songs. And not just any songs: They were the songs of slavery, composed at a time when tens of thousands of black people were condemned to life as white people’s property, and tens of thousands more died along the way. That attitude, that black people were worth nothing but what they could be exploited for, still remains and informs Bonifassi and Lepage’s decisions. They weren’t highlighting black artists, they weren’t bringing anything new to the conversation… They were just using these songs to put on a show for their personal profit and artistic satisfaction. They exploited the cultural heritage of a disadvantaged community that had already been exploited in every other way. [Here’s an article by a woman of color summing up the situation nicely.](https://medium.com/@divaracheld/comprehensive-list-of-what-quebeckers-have-learned-from-the-sl%C4%81v-play-controversy-with-caucasians-441eebcdd92e) ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2018, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-identity-politics-gone-mad/817475/44 "2018-07-10T20:20:57Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > How is that any different from using your own cultural norms in a disrespectful way? Yes, if you’re targeting another race it can become racism, but isn’t racism primarily disrespect for other races? A lot of people _do_ think it’s more offensive to make fun of a group of which you’re not a member than it is to make fun of a group if you are a member of it. A lot of avoiding cultural appropriation is “don’t be a dick,” although it is possible to do something offensive with regard to another culture out of ignorance rather than malice. This would include something like unknowingly using a religious symbol from another culture in a secular context. You have to keep not being a dick when somebody from that culture points out that your use of a cultural symbol is offensive. ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2018, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-identity-politics-gone-mad/817475/45 "2018-07-10T20:26:40Z")
> [@xnylder](#): > > I’m white, but I live in Montreal, so I’ll address this specific issue: Yes Slav is a problem. It’s a symptom of the systemic discrimination against people of color that happens here. > > In a city as diverse as Montreal, there’s a shameful lack of people of color on stage. Several theater companies include no people of color at all, and smaller companies dedicated to people of color (like the Black Theatre Workshop), rarely get the exposure of the majority-white troupes. We even still have blackface going on: in one recent example, a company that puts on year-end comedy revues chose to “black up” a white actor to play P.K. Subban. And it’s no better behind the scenes: Very few people of color are involved in theater production or direction. Cultural appropriation doesn’t happen in a vacuum. A thing like this isn’t usually just about white people singing black spirituals. There are issues of history (the history of blackface), representation of black people in theater, and all kinds of stuff like that. The bigger problem here is that people of color are underrepresented in theater companies. White people singing black spirituals or playing people of color is a symptom of that. If people of color were not underrepresented in theater, then white people singing black spirituals might not be a problem, but people of color are underrepresented in theater. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2018, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-identity-politics-gone-mad/817475/46 "2018-07-10T21:07:35Z")
> [@Anne\_Neville](#): > > A lot of people _do_ think it’s more offensive to make fun of a group of which you’re not a member than it is to make fun of a group if you are a member of it. Well, that puts pretty much the whole Dope in the wrong for making fun of Republicans. ---
**Author:** ![xnylder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/bbce88/32.png) [@xnylder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xnylder)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-identity-politics-gone-mad/817475/47 "2018-07-11T00:22:35Z")
> [@Anne\_Neville](#): > > Cultural appropriation doesn’t happen in a vacuum. A thing like this isn’t usually just about white people singing black spirituals. There are issues of history (the history of blackface), representation of black people in theater, and all kinds of stuff like that. The bigger problem here is that people of color are underrepresented in theater companies. White people singing black spirituals or playing people of color is a symptom of that. If people of color were not underrepresented in theater, then white people singing black spirituals might not be a problem, but people of color are underrepresented in theater. I believe you’re right, the under-representation of people of color in theatre is a serious concern that leads to many issues, including the production of exploitative shows like this one. That in turn is just one example of the under-representation of people of color in society in general, including in many professions and the government. ---
**Author:** ![CelticKnot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/celticknot/32/3392_2.png) [@CelticKnot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CelticKnot)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-identity-politics-gone-mad/817475/48 "2018-07-11T14:15:59Z")
If all cultures are supposed to be of equal value, why do some get the protection of cultural appropriation complaints and others don’t? I don’t see anyone whining about cultural appropriation of Halloween from the Irish in October. Would anyone agree to ban non-Irish from a St. Patrick’s Day parade? ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-identity-politics-gone-mad/817475/49 "2018-07-11T14:23:51Z")
> [@CelticKnot](#): > > If all cultures are supposed to be of equal value, why do some get the protection of cultural appropriation complaints and others don’t? > > I don’t see anyone whining about cultural appropriation of Halloween from the Irish in October. > Would anyone agree to ban non-Irish from a St. Patrick’s Day parade? It is weird that no one uses the phrase Cultural Appropriation to describe this because it fits slightly better than other examples since to a degree Americanized versions of the holidays are becoming the “real deal” in people’s minds and pushing out other versions. But there are _some_ people who don’t appreciate this, they just puzzlingly don’t use “CA” to describe this. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-identity-politics-gone-mad/817475/50 "2018-07-11T14:28:43Z")
> [@HelenGawn](#): > > The exception would be an African-American troupe reclaiming their history, sort of like the Carolina Chocolate Drops. (As a white person, it took me a long time to say their name without wincing.) [tangent] Off to Google … had no idea that “Carolina Chocolate Drops” were anything but a nonce name for the musical group. [/tangent] ---
**Author:** ![CelticKnot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/celticknot/32/3392_2.png) [@CelticKnot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CelticKnot)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-identity-politics-gone-mad/817475/51 "2018-07-11T14:29:45Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > It is weird that no one uses the phrase Cultural Appropriation to describe this because it fits slightly better than other examples since to a degree Americanized versions of the holidays are becoming the “real deal” in people’s minds and pushing out other versions. > > But there are _some_ people who don’t appreciate this, they just puzzlingly don’t use “CA” to describe this. And the things that are taboo aren’t Americanized? ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-identity-politics-gone-mad/817475/52 "2018-07-11T14:37:28Z")
> [@CelticKnot](#): > > If all cultures are supposed to be of equal value, why do some get the protection of cultural appropriation complaints and others don’t? > > I don’t see anyone whining about cultural appropriation of Halloween from the Irish in October. > Would anyone agree to ban non-Irish from a St. Patrick’s Day parade? Because the Irish these days are not seen as “have nots” (regardless of past trials) and Irish ancestry is not seen as a stumbling block in modern America. No one caring about the sanctity of St Patrick’s Day or leprechauns is the price you pay for homogenizing into American society where no one gives a shit that you’re Irish, much less refuses to hire you or shoots you at a traffic stop. Other people figure that if they’re going to be treated as second class citizen, maybe the least white people can do is not co-opt their culture for fun. ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-identity-politics-gone-mad/817475/53 "2018-07-11T15:42:56Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > Because the Irish these days are not seen as “have nots” (regardless of past trials) and Irish ancestry is not seen as a stumbling block in modern America. No one caring about the sanctity of St Patrick’s Day or leprechauns is the price you pay for homogenizing into American society where no one gives a shit that you’re Irish, much less refuses to hire you or shoots you at a traffic stop. If discrimination against black people were to stop, then maybe it would be okay for a theatre troupe consisting only of white people to do things associated with black people, like sing spirituals. More likely, though, if discrimination against black people ended, there would be fewer all-white theatre troupes. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-identity-politics-gone-mad/817475/54 "2018-07-11T16:05:37Z")
> [@Anne\_Neville](#): > > If discrimination against black people were to stop, then maybe it would be okay for a theatre troupe consisting only of white people to do things associated with black people, like sing spirituals. More likely, though, if discrimination against black people ended, there would be fewer all-white theatre troupes. Would it be okay for theater troupes that have not discriminated to sing spirituals? Do they have to wait for all discrimination everywhere to stop before they are allowed to sing, or just discrimination in their city, state, or country? ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-identity-politics-gone-mad/817475/55 "2018-07-11T17:07:30Z")
> [@bordelond](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Originally Posted by **don’t mind me** > > > > The exception would be an African-American troupe reclaiming their history, sort of like the Carolina Chocolate Drops. (As a white person, it took me a long time to say their name without wincing.) > > [tangent] > > Off to Google … had no idea that “Carolina Chocolate Drops” were anything but a nonce name for the musical group. > > [/tangent] OK … maybe my Google-fu is off today … but I cannot find out why “Carolina Chocolate Drops” made **don’t mind me** wince. 😕 A little help? ---
**Author:** ![Filbert](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/filbert/32/3433_2.png) [@Filbert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Filbert)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-identity-politics-gone-mad/817475/56 "2018-07-11T17:56:35Z")
> [@CelticKnot](#): > > If all cultures are supposed to be of equal value, why do some get the protection of cultural appropriation complaints and others don’t? > > I don’t see anyone whining about cultural appropriation of Halloween from the Irish in October. Since when was Halloween Irish? Largely based on existing Celtic tradition, sure, but Celtic does not mean ‘Irish’. The Scots and the Welsh, among others, have just as good a claim. Are the Irish complaining about overseas St Patrick’s Day celebrations? I’ve seen a little eye rolling and an occasional complaint about the inaccurate ‘St Patty’s Day’ name, but they just don’t seem to care very much if the US wants to celebrate their own version of the festival. If a significant number of Irish people were actually bothered by the co-option of their national saint’s day, there would be a case for objections based on cultural appropriation, but if not, there really isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-identity-politics-gone-mad/817475/57 "2018-07-13T15:36:17Z")
> [@Filbert](#): > > Since when was Halloween Irish? Largely based on existing Celtic tradition, sure, but Celtic does not mean ‘Irish’. The Scots and the Welsh, among others, have just as good a claim. > > Are the Irish complaining about overseas St Patrick’s Day celebrations? I’ve seen a little eye rolling and an occasional complaint about the inaccurate ‘St Patty’s Day’ name, but they just don’t seem to care very much if the US wants to celebrate their own version of the festival. If a significant number of Irish people were actually bothered by the co-option of their national saint’s day, there would be a case for objections based on cultural appropriation, but if not, there really isn’t. What is being asked about is the standard. You seem to be saying that cultural appropriation is fine unless a significant number of people object. How many people are a significant number? In the instance mentioned in the OP the black cast members did not have a problem with the show, why are their opinions less relevant than the handful of protesters? ---
**Author:** ![Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19adc/32.png) [@Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-identity-politics-gone-mad/817475/58 "2018-07-13T16:24:38Z")
> [@xnylder](#): > > I’m white, but I live in Montreal, so I’ll address this specific issue: Yes Slav is a problem. It’s a symptom of the systemic discrimination against people of color that happens here. This is the problem in Quebec: Once you get out of Montreal it is extraordinarily difficult to find someone who isn’t descended from white French Catholics. In some towns 95%+ of people can trace their roots to French settlers from the 1600s or earlier. In addition, most of the black residents of Quebec are immigrants from French-speaking countries (or their parents or grandparents immigrated) – and so obviously don’t share the same history as most black people in North America. It makes for a very skewed discussion when the majority commentariat cannot find someone whose ancestors lived through what is being portrayed in a work of art. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-identity-politics-gone-mad/817475.md?page=2)