# Cultural Appropriation: What's Wrong With It? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 11, 2015, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-whats-wrong-with-it/737271 "2015-11-11T05:51:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![skylyn12](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5f8ce5/32.png) [@skylyn12](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/skylyn12)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2015, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-whats-wrong-with-it/737271/21 "2015-11-11T12:54:07Z")
I think there can be offensive appropriation. But it is now too often drowned out by throwing the term at anything or anyone we don’t like. There was a long thread on this board about whether Miley Cyrus was engaged in offensive cultural appropriation because she twerked in a video and had POC as backup dancers. Seriously. We did that. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2015, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-whats-wrong-with-it/737271/22 "2015-11-11T13:21:09Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I think we should all be guided by the principle that the difference between Cultural Celebration and Cultural Appropriation is much like the difference between erotica and porn - you know it when you see it. > > And, oh yeah, don’t dress like Hitler. Because that’d be appropriation of Nazi culture. In any case, these discussions always come down to the distinction that cultural appropriation is fine when it is done to whites in Western nations, but bad when done to other ethnicities or other nations. Because whitey is born into a unique historic collective guilt that’s passed down through the generations like the Original Sin, which means only people in this class can be guilty of such racist transgressions. It’s the White Man’s Burden. Thus (from the latest thread on the subject), Thor cartoons and movies made in the USA (which is anything but celebration) is fine; Lego characters from Maori history is bad. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2015, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-whats-wrong-with-it/737271/23 "2015-11-11T13:27:00Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > It’s all well and good to say it wouldn’t bother you, but that doesn’t mean jack squat. All I can do is speak for myself. > [@](#): > > I’ve seen a lot of Americans live abroad, and it gets to all of them eventually, to a greater or lesser degree. Are you talking about cultural appropriation? > [@](#): > > What do you think is more likely- that white Americans in the US are remarkably thick skinned and emotionally balanced while everyone else is basically a big whiner…or maybe it is genuinely unpleasant? What is unpleasant? ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2015, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-whats-wrong-with-it/737271/24 "2015-11-11T13:29:18Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > And, oh yeah, don’t dress like Hitler. The best thing one can do about Hitler is to ridicule and lampoon, that includes dressing as him when occasion arises. ---
**Author:** ![skylyn12](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5f8ce5/32.png) [@skylyn12](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/skylyn12)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2015, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-whats-wrong-with-it/737271/25 "2015-11-11T13:41:06Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > Because that’d be appropriation of Nazi culture. In any case, these discussions always come down to the distinction that cultural appropriation is fine when it is done to whites in Western nations, but bad when done to other ethnicities or other nations. Because whitey is born into a unique historic collective guilt that’s passed down through the generations like the Original Sin, which means only people in this class can be guilty of such racist transgressions. It’s the White Man’s Burden. Thus (from the latest thread on the subject), Thor cartoons and movies made in the USA (which is anything but celebration) is fine; Lego characters from Maori history is bad. Maybe this is true to some extent, but I would argue that it is more dependent on the person doing the appropriation rather than the culture being appropriated. Paul Simon does it, no problem (we like him!). MIA does it, no problem, she isn’t white (and we like her!). ---
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2015, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-whats-wrong-with-it/737271/26 "2015-11-11T13:48:17Z")
> [@skylyn12](#): > > Maybe this is true to some extent, but I would argue that it is more dependent on the person doing the appropriation rather than the culture being appropriated. Paul Simon does it, no problem (we like him!). MIA does it, no problem, she isn’t white (and we like her!). Again, cultural appropriation has to do with respect. Like **monstro** said, there are extremists who will be bothered by anything, but many people will be accepting of others using elements of their culture if they find it is done respectfully. Paul Simon did a beautiful job in Graceland, and the people who sang there are credited, and they were original South African singers and groups, who suffered apartheid themselves. It would’ve been different had he done the album without them, or without crediting them. MIA uses elements of the culture she grew up and identifies with, so she cannot appropriate what she is (she may misrepresent it). Also, in videos that I’ve seen that use elements from other cultures, it is either with some respect (or at least nor mockery), or even an attempt at veiled (hah) criticism. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2015, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-whats-wrong-with-it/737271/27 "2015-11-11T13:53:55Z")
> [@skylyn12](#): > > Maybe this is true to some extent, but I would argue that it is more dependent on the person doing the appropriation rather than the culture being appropriated. Paul Simon does it, no problem (we like him!). MIA does it, no problem, she isn’t white (and we like her!). Marvell does it. Lego does it. The Tokyo Philharmonic Orchestra does it. Elvis Presley did it. Miles Cyrus did it. Madonna did it. Taylor Swift did it. But I’m not really on top of who we like and who we dislike. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2015, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-whats-wrong-with-it/737271/28 "2015-11-11T14:02:42Z")
> [@KarlGrenze](#): > > Again, cultural appropriation has to do with respect. > > Like **monstro** said, there are extremists who will be bothered by anything, but many people will be accepting of others using elements of their culture if they find it is done respectfully. > > Paul Simon did a beautiful job in Graceland, and the people who sang there are credited, and they were original South African singers and groups, who suffered apartheid themselves. It would’ve been different had he done the album without them, or without crediting them. > > MIA uses elements of the culture she grew up and identifies with, so she cannot appropriate what she is (she may misrepresent it). Also, in videos that I’ve seen that use elements from other cultures, it is either with some respect (or at least nor mockery), or even an attempt at veiled (hah) criticism. Well let me tell you that dressing Thor up as a fucking girl is not respectful, yet it was celebrated as a big thing by a lot of exactly the same progressives who are likely to go on about cultural appropriation. And let’s not even get started on the silly Japanese Ragnarok anime series which seems like a cross-product of My Little Pony and Hello Kitty. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2015, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-whats-wrong-with-it/737271/29 "2015-11-11T14:15:36Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Missing from all this is any explanation of why appropriation is supposed to be harmful. A production of _The Mikado_ featuring white actors does not harm anybody. Neither does a fantasy author borrowing elements from Russian fairy tales. The conclusion that seems to suggest itself is that there are certain people with a desperate need to whine about something, and they’re having to find sillier and sillier things to whine about as time goes on. The usual objection to the Mikado isn’t that White actors play Japanese characters, it’s that they usually do so in yellowface blatant enough to make Micky Rooney in B@T seem culturally sensitive. And define “harm” - by the token you seem to be using, there’s “no harm” in yelling “Nigger” at a Black person, either. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2015, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-whats-wrong-with-it/737271/30 "2015-11-11T14:15:39Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > All I can do is speak for myself. But what are you basing this on? Have you been in this situation before? We can all spin heroic stories of how noble we would act in situations we never have to confront, but that doesn’t mean much. I’m sure that if I were in Nazi Germany I would have hidden dozens of families. I’m sure that if I were on the Titanic, I would have calmly conducted an evacuation. I’m sure that if I were lost in the woods, I’d never wander aimlessly. > [@](#): > > Are you talking about cultural appropriation? > What is unpleasant? Yes, and in its worst forms it is unpleasant to be around. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2015, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-whats-wrong-with-it/737271/31 "2015-11-11T14:31:34Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Everything is fair game to me. I go by the Golden Rule as mentioned upthread. I wouldn’t do anything that I wouldn’t want done to me. > > If anyone around the world wants to copy, bastardise, parody or otherwise manipulate an aspect of my culture, music, art, dress, religious practicies etc. Then please go ahead. I don’t care one jot. > > I will only ever complain if it is done with malicious intent but even then I don’t expect anyone to take notice of me. Similarly, I’ll feel free to take whatever aspects I fancy from other cultures. No-one “owns” the right to a culture. +1000. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2015, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-whats-wrong-with-it/737271/32 "2015-11-11T14:55:18Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > But what are you basing this on? What am I basing my personal worldview on? my personal worldview…what else am I supposed to do? > [@](#): > > Have you been in this situation before? We can all spin heroic stories of how noble we would act in situations we never have to confront, but that doesn’t mean much. Certainly I’ve been in situations where my own cultural background has been mocked though I suspect that whatever example I give will not be acceptable to you. > [@](#): > > I’m sure that if I were in Nazi Germany I would have hidden dozens of families. I’m sure that if I were on the Titanic, I would have calmly conducted an evacuation. I’m sure that if I were lost in the woods, I’d never wander aimlessly. Heroic stories? how did we arrive at saving holocaust-threatened people? I don’t claim any great heroics on my part, merely that I’m not precious about my own cultural baggage and others can feel free to do what they want with it, and I’ll do the same. If there’s no malice and no intention to hurt then it really shouldn’t be a big issue. > [@](#): > > Yes, and in its worst forms it is unpleasant to be around. What would cultural appropriation “in its worst forms” actually be? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2015, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-whats-wrong-with-it/737271/33 "2015-11-11T15:02:32Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > People don’t like see their identity trivialized. Since identity is trivial, a reality check that makes them mad is a healthy learning experience. Cultural appropriation is the biggest non-issue that ever was. Given the definition on wikipedia: > [@](#): > > Cultural appropriation is a sociological concept which views the adoption or use of elements of one culture by members of a different culture as a largely negative phenomenon I don’t see how any reasonable thinking person can agree that the adoption of elements of one culture by members of a different culture is a bad thing. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2015, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-whats-wrong-with-it/737271/34 "2015-11-11T15:04:34Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > It can definitely be jarring when one culture enjoys elements of another culture with one hand while condemning it with another. The old expression “Everyone wants to be black, but no one wants to _be_ black” comes to mind. This is the kind of cultural appropriation I can understand as negative. If you would make fun of a Black woman for her hairstyle, call her trashy for the “bling” on her shirt, say she’s a bitch because of her long intricately painted nails…and then wear your hair, shirt, or nails exactly like that and be celebrated by your White friends as fashion forward and daring, yet you’re all still calling \*her \*a trashy bitch nigger…THAT is cultural appropriation. The exact cultural signifiers that you use to keep her in the oppressed underclass elevate you in the dominant overclass. That’s got to be…that’s got to be fucking infuriating, that does. That goes beyond cultural exchange. That’s cultural rape. But I also agree that sometimes people take their sensitivity too far. Not every form of appreciation of elements of another’s culture is appropriation, or offensive. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2015, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-whats-wrong-with-it/737271/35 "2015-11-11T15:07:49Z")
How often does a white person adopt black cultural norms or fashions and actually dislike black people though? And vice versa? For example, Rachel Dolezal was accused of “cultural appropriation”. She did not hate black people, quite the opposite. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2015, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-whats-wrong-with-it/737271/36 "2015-11-11T15:36:51Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Personally, I’m not bothered when I see most examples of cultural appropriation. You’re a white person who wants to wear locks? Go ahead! They don’t belong to me. After all, no one gave me a hard time when I wore my hair straight and European-like all those years. And I’m not going to have a problem if you jump on the stage and start performing like James Brown (especially if you credit James Brown as your inspiration). If you’re respectful about it, no one is really going to care except for the fringe who’s always got their drawers in a wad. If you’re respectful–which to me would include understanding the meaning and only applying it in a sincere way–that’s not _appropriation_ at all. That’s just culture. People assimilating new elements into their own cultural practice, or themselves into a new one, isn’t any kind of abuse; that’s part of what culture _is_, how it’s supposed to work. Cultural appropriation means taking elements _out_ of their meaning context. Without respect, without understanding, without sincerity. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2015, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-whats-wrong-with-it/737271/37 "2015-11-11T15:40:41Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > In any case, these discussions always come down to the distinction that cultural appropriation is fine when it is done to whites in Western nations, but bad when done to other ethnicities or other nations. Not at all. I can easily _imagine_ an obnoxious, offensive cultural appropriation of white Westerners. It just doesn’t seem to actually happen much. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2015, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-whats-wrong-with-it/737271/38 "2015-11-11T15:46:27Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > Well let me tell you that dressing Thor up as a fucking girl is not respectful Isn’t this coming at it kinda late? Doesn’t the appropriation here start with (male) Thor being made into a “superhero” cartoon in the first place? ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2015, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-whats-wrong-with-it/737271/39 "2015-11-11T15:48:19Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > How often does a white person adopt black cultural norms or fashions and actually dislike black people though? And vice versa? For example, Rachel Dolezal was accused of “cultural appropriation”. She did not hate black people, quite the opposite. Good point. Thanks for the question. I don’t think that’s the \*only \*form of cultural appropriation, just the easiest to see. Entertainment is where you see a lot of that particular flavor of cultural appropriation, and where it’s most often called out. But I’ve seen it in private life as well. I don’t think it’s always as literal as that. Being as I run in Neopagan circles, and we don’t have any culture of our own, really, but borrow bits and pieces from everyone, it’s a big issue that’s talked about a lot. I think that one can accidentally appropriate, or personally have no ill feelings about the culture while still benefiting disproportionately from the wearing/doing of the thing. One simple example, using myself: a few years ago, I bought a bunch of caftans at a discount store. I love them. They’re comfortable, they’re lightweight, they feel like I’m wearing nothing. I do not wear them outside the home any more, unless I’m camping at a Pagan festival. They’re too much associated with the Black community that surrounds me. I got an insane number of compliments on them whenever I wore them out…while to the Black women who also wear them, they’re neutral to negatively viewed. Don’t get me wrong, I love compliments! I still love my caftans! But the level of praise I got for wearing the same garment that elicits sighs and rolled eyes from cashiers when worn by someone with brown skin made me profoundly uncomfortable. It made me realize that, while I was shopping for comfort with no hatred of Black women in my heart, I was still engaging in cultural appropriation, because I don’t get to decide how \*other \*people view it. Rachel Dolezal literally benefited from her adoption of Black cultural identification, in that she got a college degree and a job by pretending to be Black, while she still grew up with the cultural benefits of being White. And then she lied about it. That’s what pissed people off about her. Hers was not a simple case of cultural appropriation. She is…special. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2015, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-whats-wrong-with-it/737271/40 "2015-11-11T15:50:55Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > Isn’t this coming at it kinda late? Doesn’t the appropriation here start with (male) Thor being made into a “superhero” cartoon in the first place? Of course. This is just the last iteration. Next they’ll have him a fat transgender brony Thor. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-whats-wrong-with-it/737271.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-whats-wrong-with-it/737271.md?page=3)