# Cultural Appropriation: What's Wrong With It? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 11, 2015, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-whats-wrong-with-it/737271 "2015-11-11T05:51:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2015, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-whats-wrong-with-it/737271/41 "2015-11-11T15:55:37Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > People don’t like see their identity trivialized. And then one day you grow up and realize all identity is actually trivial in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2015, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-whats-wrong-with-it/737271/42 "2015-11-11T15:57:29Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > If you’re respectful–which to me would include understanding the meaning and only applying it in a sincere way–that’s not _appropriation_ at all. That’s just culture. People assimilating new elements into their own cultural practice, or themselves into a new one, isn’t any kind of abuse; that’s part of what culture _is_, how it’s supposed to work. > > Cultural appropriation means taking elements _out_ of their meaning context. Without respect, without understanding, without sincerity. I’m still not seeing that even your definition of CA is necessarily bad. If I adopt clothing from another culture without understanding, respect or sincerity… so what? It’s just clothing, and I wear whatever the fuck I want to wear. If your culture has some special cuisine that has some religious significance, but I just like the taste, I’m going to cook and eat it without giving two shits about how you consider it to be sacred and meaningful. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2015, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-whats-wrong-with-it/737271/43 "2015-11-11T15:59:34Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > Well let me tell you that dressing Thor up as a fucking girl is not respectful, Hell, I found that one ridiculous and offensive to logic and it’s not even from my culture. Then again, the whole “let’s redefine everybody’s race and sex, including some things that make no sense within the culture these people are supposed to live in” run Marvel has been having for several years is generally ridiculous and offensive to logic (yes, yes, I know we’re talking about a bunch of comics where people fly and read minds, death is not permanent and someone can be cut in half and walk around on a pair of robot legs that begin at her waist, yet a few issues later be back to normal). ---
**Author:** ![Barrett\_Bonden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5e9695/32.png) [@Barrett\_Bonden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barrett_Bonden)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2015, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-whats-wrong-with-it/737271/44 "2015-11-11T15:59:57Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > New York’s Gilbert and Sullivan players recently [canceled](http://takingnote.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/09/18/the-mikado-is-beheaded-in-new-york/?_r=0) a production of _The Mikado_ because it’s not kosher to have white actors playing Japanese roles. (Actually I’m not sure whether using the word “kosher” figuratively is appropriation, maybe I need a consultant to help me figure these things out.) The soldiers in the war against fun and enjoyment seem to have _Madame Butterfly_ staked out as their next target. As a Gilbert & Sullivan afficionado, I have been following the _Mikado_ debates with great interest. Incidentally, there is no excuse for NYG&SP to have been so blindsided by the reaction, since a previous production in Seattle had received [a lot of press](http://blogs.seattletimes.com/opinionnw/2014/08/19/mikado-yellowface/) on the controversy and brought many of the issues out in the open. The issues surrounding _The Mikado_ aren’t really “cultural appropriation” as I understand it, nor do the people objecting to it insist that white actors cannot play any of the roles. The issue with _The Mikado_ is that Japanese people and culture were used as caricatures, the exotic “other,” for the audience’s amusement. Using makeup and costumes (“yellowface”) to mimic Japanese culture is offensive. Fortunately, there are respectful ways to deal with the problematic history of the production and many theaters have and are figuring out how to incorporate them. NYG&SP was a bit behind the curve. As I was watching the Seattle issues unfolding, I remember wondering why _Madame Butterfly_ had never been challenged. I eventually decided it was staying under the radar in the US because it’s generally not performed in English. Again, though, I don’t think either of these are cultural appropriation issues. They are issues of cultural caricature. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2015, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-whats-wrong-with-it/737271/45 "2015-11-11T16:04:58Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I’m still not seeing that even your definition of CA is necessarily bad. If I adopt clothing from another culture without understanding, respect or sincerity… so what? It’s just clothing, and I wear whatever the fuck I want to wear. If your culture has some special cuisine that has some religious significance, but I just like the taste, I’m going to cook and eat it without giving two shits about how you consider it to be sacred and meaningful. Do you see yourself as belonging to any identifiable culture, within which there are elements that carry meaning beyond their strictly practical, functional characteristics? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2015, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-whats-wrong-with-it/737271/46 "2015-11-11T16:05:56Z")
We could stand to be a little sensitive to the feelings of others, there’s no need to be deliberately insulting to other cultures, but that’s about the limit of it. Culture is just culture, you can have yours if you want it, but you can’t stop others from taking from it. Just like the English language as noted in post #2 we also have a culture which takes from others, and it is a better culture from doing so. It’s a non-exclusive culture, we embrace other cultures to make them a part of our giant patchwork. We are the super-culture, the best of all and even the worst too, thrown together for people to choose their own ways. We invented freedom. We invented the movies. We invented Rock & Roll. We are the World’s Culture. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2015, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-whats-wrong-with-it/737271/47 "2015-11-11T16:15:10Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > How often does a white person adopt black cultural norms or fashions and actually dislike black people though? And vice versa? For example, Rachel Dolezal was accused of “cultural appropriation”. She did not hate black people, quite the opposite. See Marky Mark, also known as Mark Wahlberg. How often does it happen? The fuck I know. But you don’t have to be a member of the KKK to be a racist. You can unconsciously harbor negative feelings about black people while consciously believing you love them. I have befriended more than a few white people who seem to think they’ve got some degree of “flava”. And then one day they say something that reminds me they are really no different than your average white person. I have a friend now who thinks it funny to ask me to “protect” her whenever she has to travel through a black neighborhood. Yet she absolutely loves it when black men show her positive attention, and she’s always fronting like she’s down with the swirl (despite being married to a white guy). I think she’s a cool person, but I’m not under any delusion that she doesn’t hold racist beliefs and prejudices. She’s a white upper middle class Baby Boomer born and raised in the South. Of course she’s going to hold some racist beliefs and prejudices. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2015, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-whats-wrong-with-it/737271/48 "2015-11-11T16:17:11Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > We invented freedom. > > We invented the movies. > > We invented Rock & Roll. > > We are the World’s Culture. Are you talking about the US, or actually about the whole world? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2015, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-whats-wrong-with-it/737271/49 "2015-11-11T16:26:37Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Are you talking about the US, or actually about the whole world? It is the whole world. A super-culture has arisen that envelops all other cultures. The earth is flat now, the separation of distance means nothing any more. Any where in the world people can adopt the super-culture. The inclusivity of the super-culture allows new sub-cultures to be created freely, as a result we will see more new sub-cultures that could ever have formed in isolation. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2015, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-whats-wrong-with-it/737271/50 "2015-11-11T16:29:54Z")
Until you try to use the shower in a foreign hotel… ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2015, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-whats-wrong-with-it/737271/51 "2015-11-11T16:35:01Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > It is the whole world. A super-culture has arisen that envelops all other cultures. The earth is flat now, the separation of distance means nothing any more. Any where in the world people can adopt the super-culture. The inclusivity of the super-culture allows new sub-cultures to be created freely, as a result we will see more new sub-cultures that could ever have formed in isolation. … You know, I’m actually seeing some contradictions in terms there. If “the super-culture” is something that people can adopt, then it’s not all-inclusive, it’s already a sub-culture of world-culture. (Very poetic an’ stuff, otherwise) ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2015, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-whats-wrong-with-it/737271/52 "2015-11-11T16:36:54Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > … You know, I’m actually seeing some contradictions in terms there. > > If “the super-culture” is something that people can adopt, then it’s not all-inclusive, it’s already a sub-culture of world-culture. > > (Very poetic an’ stuff, otherwise) I guess it’s a set that includes itself. ---
**Author:** ![WF\_Tomba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d9b06d/32.png) [@WF\_Tomba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WF_Tomba)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2015, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-whats-wrong-with-it/737271/53 "2015-11-11T16:48:56Z")
I love _The Mikado_. I don’t really expect Japanese people to be OK with it. But I’m not sure how much I actually care how Japanese people feel about it, or indeed why I should care. The Japanese are hardly what you would call an oppressed people today. Paradoxically, the less downtrodden the various Asian ethnic groups become, the more we white people seem to care about respecting their cultures. It makes me think that we’re just scrambling to make nice with them out of self-interest, now that they’re becoming our social equals — like if you used to bully your brother when you were both kids, but now he’s grown up and has better career prospects than you do, and once you realize this, you become very remorseful about how you treated him back then. My own culture of origin is white, Jewish, Scottish, Episcopalian, plus some other European flavors. I’ve got tons of privilege. The one thing I will never give up is the right to make fun of the Germans and the French. That is the hill I die on. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2015, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-whats-wrong-with-it/737271/54 "2015-11-11T16:56:18Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > The best thing one can do about Hitler is to ridicule and lampoon, that includes dressing as him when occasion arises. [Heil me.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnfwBeVFlbU) ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2015, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-whats-wrong-with-it/737271/55 "2015-11-11T16:58:14Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > How often does a white person adopt black cultural norms or fashions and actually dislike black people though? And vice versa? For example, Rachel Dolezal was accused of “cultural appropriation”. She did not hate black people, quite the opposite. No, she was a self hating white person. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2015, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-whats-wrong-with-it/737271/56 "2015-11-11T17:03:32Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I have befriended more than a few white people who seem to think they’ve got some degree of “flava”. And then one day they say something that reminds me they are really no different than your average white person. I have a friend now who thinks it funny to ask me to “protect” her whenever she has to travel through a black neighborhood. Yet she absolutely loves it when black men show her positive attention, and she’s always fronting like she’s down with the swirl (despite being married to a white guy). I think she’s a cool person, but I’m not under any delusion that she doesn’t hold racist beliefs and prejudices. She’s a white upper middle class Baby Boomer born and raised in the South. Of course she’s going to hold some racist beliefs and prejudices. That’s mighty whiiiii…I better not. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2015, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-whats-wrong-with-it/737271/57 "2015-11-11T17:33:44Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > She’s a white upper middle class Baby Boomer born and raised in the South. Of course she’s going to hold some racist beliefs and prejudices. You do realise that’s an inherently racist statement itself don’t you? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2015, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-whats-wrong-with-it/737271/58 "2015-11-11T17:52:11Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > Do you see yourself as belonging to any identifiable culture, within which there are elements that carry meaning beyond their strictly practical, functional characteristics? I dunno. I’m an American, born and raised in New England (which sorta has a culture) who has lived in CA most of my adult life. Ancestry is European mutt. Raised Catholic, now atheist. Baby boomer, grew up during “The 60s” with all that entails. But it wouldn’t bother me one whit if someone halfway across the globe adopted some of my culture either understanding it or not. What did we used to say: You gotta do your own thing, man! ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2015, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-whats-wrong-with-it/737271/59 "2015-11-11T17:53:21Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > You do realise that’s an inherently racist statement itself don’t you? Um, no it isn’t. I’m a black Gen Xer who was born and raised in the South. Of course _I_ hold racist beliefs and prejudices. ---
**Author:** ![WF\_Tomba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d9b06d/32.png) [@WF\_Tomba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WF_Tomba)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2015, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-whats-wrong-with-it/737271/60 "2015-11-11T17:55:26Z")
It may be racist to say that any white person is likely to be prejudiced, but it ain’t false. I propose we be honest with ourselves: lots of people are total assholes, and most people are at least partial assholes. It’s naive to assume, without proof, that a person isn’t a bigot. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-whats-wrong-with-it/737271.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-whats-wrong-with-it/737271.md?page=4)