# Cultural Appropriation: What's Wrong With It? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 11, 2015, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-whats-wrong-with-it/737271 "2015-11-11T05:51:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2015, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-whats-wrong-with-it/737271/61 "2015-11-11T17:56:06Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > What would cultural appropriation “in its worst forms” actually be? To pick a random example, Hitler. He’s popular in China, where you’ll see him used kind of like Che is here-- as a shorthand for being a generally cool badass, with only a hazy understanding of the actual politics. It’s not uncommon to see Nazi themes in things like ads and them parks. It’s played like just another western theme, like the Wild West or romantic Paris or New York. I didn’t feel much menace behind that one, in part because it’s so absurd to get on a Hitler themed roller coaster in inland China, but it’s still uncomfortable for us and unflattering for China. An example that kind of hit home to me was attending a local circus in small-town India. One of the acts had a buffonish colonial Englishman, with a red face and giant nose. Good lord, I’ve never been so uncomfortable. The spot light could have been shining right on me- as the only westerner anywhere around, with my blond hair and pale skin feeling like a neon sign. It was deeply uncomfortable, embarrasing, and a little menacing. Enough stuff like that, and eventually you realize that you are not just walking around as yourself, you are walking around as your race. When you are someplace that you are a visible minority, you never have the luxury of just being yourself, as an individual. You will always been seen as part of this whole enormous narrative that people have built up around your particular race, and you will be understood in terms of how you adhere or differ from that preconception. It gets under everyone’s skin. And when it’s combined with stuff like stereotypes and racism (and it almost always is), it’s just not a lot of fun to deal with. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2015, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-whats-wrong-with-it/737271/62 "2015-11-11T17:58:23Z")
I find it amusing that **ITR champion** was not moved to post this thread last December when Rush Limbaugh was having a fit over the idea that Idris Elba might be picked to play James Bond. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2015, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-whats-wrong-with-it/737271/63 "2015-11-11T18:10:33Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I dunno. I’m an American, born and raised in New England (which sorta has a culture) who has lived in CA most of my adult life. Ancestry is European mutt. Raised Catholic, now atheist. Baby boomer, grew up during “The 60s” with all that entails. > > But it wouldn’t bother me one whit if someone halfway across the globe adopted some of my culture either understanding it or not. What did we used to say: You gotta do your own thing, man! OK, so I take that as largely a No. You’re unbothered by cultural appropriation because you’re not susceptible to it. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2015, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-whats-wrong-with-it/737271/64 "2015-11-11T18:11:08Z")
You didn’t post anything about it either. So either you think cultural appropriation is innocuous, and agree with **ITR Champion** , or think it is bad, and agree with Rush Limbaugh. Or you don’t have a point at all. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![WF\_Tomba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d9b06d/32.png) [@WF\_Tomba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WF_Tomba)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2015, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-whats-wrong-with-it/737271/65 "2015-11-11T18:19:43Z")
A while back, someone made a parody of the Cleveland Indians “Chief Wahoo” logo, showing an Indians cap between two other caps, one for the “San Francisco Chinamen” and the other for the “New York Jews”. The fake logos were very well-done and appropriately offensive. It made a pretty good point, and fair is fair, so I support getting rid of Chief Wahoo. But at the same time, part of me just wishes those other teams really existed. I would _totally_ root for the New York Jews. _Ikey, Mikey, Jake and Sam! We’re the boys who eat no ham …_ ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2015, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-whats-wrong-with-it/737271/66 "2015-11-11T18:25:58Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > OK, so I take that as largely a No. You’re unbothered by cultural appropriation because you’re not susceptible to it. That assumes one can’t be bothered by something one is not susceptible to. Which is a clearly a false assumption. Anyone who knows anything about primates in general, and apes in particular would consider the idea of CA to be laughable. We copy things. It’s what we do. It’s part of what makes us what we are, as a species. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2015, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-whats-wrong-with-it/737271/67 "2015-11-11T18:41:04Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > That assumes one can’t be bothered by something one is not susceptible to. No, I don’t believe that at all. But _some_ people _aren’t_ bothered by anything they are not themselves susceptible to. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > Anyone who knows anything about primates in general, and apes in particular would consider the idea of CA to be laughable. We copy things. It’s what we do. Adopting practices from others is not necessarily CA; as I said, often it’s just culture. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2015, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-whats-wrong-with-it/737271/68 "2015-11-11T18:52:18Z")
I’m willing to listen to claims of cultural appropriation on a case by case basis, but I find most of the conversation about it annoying. • There is usually an unstated assumption that there exists a finite and already-defined “grab bag” of identities that fall into the “marginalized” category. It is the cultural appropriation of _their_ identities that is the focus of the cultural-appropriation complaints. No one is complaining that the culture of ultrarich Locust Valley people or nerdy Silicon Valley yuppies or white Texas fraternity boys are being appropraited even when people adorn themselves like them specifically to mock and lampoon them. There _are_ people who complain that white southerners (for one examle) are being CA’d but they aren’t taken particularly seriously — they aren’t listed as being in the bag, they aren’t perceived as necessarily being “marginalized” and hence worthy of our sympathies. I personally do not like the arrogance of the assumption that we’ve now taken note of every oppression and inequality and every alienation and every category of mistreated person, that we know who they are, and that the rest of you overly-washed overly-privileged masses are the perpetrators. I don’t like the zero-sum assumptions about power that underlie it, either. • On top of that, I dont think it’s constructively empowering to position your marginalized group as perpetually victimized. It’s whiny. I’m one of the hordes of people in our society who have been diagnosed “schizophrenic” and I definitely consider us, as a group, to be badly marginalized and disempowered and oppressed and coerced and mistreated and regarded in a derogatory and disgusting manner and so forth. (I don’t know as how you’d regard us as having a “culture”, but stay with me here). Do I think it helps us in any way to complain if Halloween trick-or-treaters & partiers dress up like psycho killers with ripped-up straitjackets and chainsaws in hand? Does it bother me when used car salespeople and audio component salespeople and various other retailers air ads in which they refer to themselves as “insane” or “psychotic”? Yeesh, hell no, we’ve got real stuff to be concerned with like HR 2646. I don’t think it’s good to walk on eggshells around the stereotypes. Embrace them and make fun of them instead, that’s the healthier ticket. ---
**Author:** ![skylyn12](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5f8ce5/32.png) [@skylyn12](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/skylyn12)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2015, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-whats-wrong-with-it/737271/69 "2015-11-11T19:02:01Z")
> [@KarlGrenze](#): > > Again, cultural appropriation has to do with respect. > > Like **monstro** said, there are extremists who will be bothered by anything, but many people will be accepting of others using elements of their culture if they find it is done respectfully. > > Paul Simon did a beautiful job in Graceland, and the people who sang there are credited, and they were original South African singers and groups, who suffered apartheid themselves. It would’ve been different had he done the album without them, or without crediting them. > > MIA uses elements of the culture she grew up and identifies with, so she cannot appropriate what she is (she may misrepresent it). Also, in videos that I’ve seen that use elements from other cultures, it is either with some respect (or at least nor mockery), or even an attempt at veiled (hah) criticism. So, if Paul Simon had done the exact same album, but had not credited anyone or used anyone from South Africa, it would have been awful cultural appropriation, even though the resulting work would have been exactly the same? When I listen to an album, how can I tell (just from listening to it) if it was made respectfully? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2015, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-whats-wrong-with-it/737271/70 "2015-11-11T19:19:53Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > You didn’t post anything about it either. So either you think cultural appropriation is innocuous, and agree with **ITR Champion** , or think it is bad, and agree with Rush Limbaugh. False dilemma. > [@Shodan](#): > > Or you don’t have a point at all. Obviously wrong. I expressed the point: I find it amusing when an argument is made based only on whose ox is being gored. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2015, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-whats-wrong-with-it/737271/71 "2015-11-11T19:32:38Z")
> [@skylyn12](#): > > > [@KarlGrenze](#): > > > > Again, cultural appropriation has to do with respect. > > > > Like **monstro** said, there are extremists who will be bothered by anything, but many people will be accepting of others using elements of their culture if they find it is done respectfully. > > > > Paul Simon did a beautiful job in Graceland, and the people who sang there are credited, and they were original South African singers and groups, who suffered apartheid themselves. It would’ve been different had he done the album without them, or without crediting them. > > > > MIA uses elements of the culture she grew up and identifies with, so she cannot appropriate what she is (she may misrepresent it). Also, in videos that I’ve seen that use elements from other cultures, it is either with some respect (or at least nor mockery), or even an attempt at veiled (hah) criticism. > > So, if Paul Simon had done the exact same album, but had not credited anyone or used anyone from South Africa, it would have been awful cultural appropriation, even though the resulting work would have been exactly the same? > > When I listen to an album, how can I tell (just from listening to it) if it was made respectfully? Actually, Paul Simon was attacked, at the time that Graceland was released, with exactly the accusation that he had “stolen” from the musicians and singers with whom he worked. There very definitely are some people who qualify as members of the _offenderatti_, seeking things about which to be upset. Broad brush condemnation of every use of one culture’s images and associations by another as “theft” are every bit as silly as choosing to be offended that some people are _offenderatti_, (thus joining their ranks). As noted, above, there are legitimate grievances based on some events. However, each event should be judged on its own, including all relevant information, without declaring every cross-cultural use to be theft or ridiculing every expression of insult as unjustified. ---
**Author:** ![skylyn12](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5f8ce5/32.png) [@skylyn12](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/skylyn12)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2015, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-whats-wrong-with-it/737271/72 "2015-11-11T20:04:55Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Actually, Paul Simon was attacked, at the time that Graceland was released, with exactly the accusation that he had “stolen” from the musicians and singers with whom he worked. > There very definitely are some people who qualify as members of the _offenderatti_, seeking things about which to be upset. Broad brush condemnation of every use of one culture’s images and associations by another as “theft” are every bit as silly as choosing to be offended that some people are _offenderatti_, (thus joining their ranks). > > As noted, above, there are legitimate grievances based on some events. However, each event should be judged on its own, including all relevant information, without declaring every cross-cultural use to be theft or ridiculing every expression of insult as unjustified. That makes sense but we should probably err on the side of caution and default to “ridiculing every expression of insult as unjustified” don’t you think? I think we’ve tipped the other way. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2015, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-whats-wrong-with-it/737271/73 "2015-11-11T20:10:15Z")
I think the real value here is in having the conversations. There is no bright line between appropriate and inappropriate, and there will always be fuzzy edges. But just being able to talk about these things is enormous. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2015, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-whats-wrong-with-it/737271/74 "2015-11-11T20:12:59Z")
> [@skylyn12](#): > > So, if Paul Simon had done the exact same album, but had not credited anyone or used anyone from South Africa, it would have been awful cultural appropriation, even though the resulting work would have been exactly the same? > > When I listen to an album, how can I tell (just from listening to it) if it was made respectfully? He couldn’t have made the exact same work. He’d be missing the actual direct sonic contributions, and he’d also have to have been a different person himself. Speaking broadly… you maybe can’t tell _just_ from listening or looking at a work; you have to know something about the context and referents. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2015, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-whats-wrong-with-it/737271/75 "2015-11-11T20:20:47Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Everything is fair game to me. I go by the Golden Rule as mentioned upthread. I wouldn’t do anything that I wouldn’t want done to me. > > If anyone around the world wants to copy, bastardise, parody or otherwise manipulate an aspect of my culture, music, art, dress, religious practicies etc. Then please go ahead. I don’t care one jot. > > I will only ever complain if it is done with malicious intent but even then I don’t expect anyone to take notice of me. Similarly, I’ll feel free to take whatever aspects I fancy from other cultures. No-one “owns” the right to a culture. That. The guy wearing a feather hat shouldn’t wear it because he didn’t deserve it? I’m so so surprised. I assumed that every kid dressing up as an amerindian was an authentic Sioux chief. And similarly, that every little girl with a crown in her hair was in line to inherit the throne of England. A war bonnet is too important to some to be worn as part of a costume, and an uniform is too important to some to be worn as a costume, and a priest attire too important to some to be worn as a costume, and so on, and so on… There will always be someone to be offended for some reason. Fuck the offenderati. They can look elsewhere or grow a thicker skin. I see no difference in nature between stating “don’t wear a war bonnet because it offends people” and “don’t depict Mahomet because it offends people”. Not only I don’t think that “cultural appropriation” is wrong, and don’t even think that cultural appropriation is a _thing_. “Cultural appropriation” would be something like regularly eating pizza despite not being Italian,which would be a _good_ thing. Or conceivably, decorating your bedroom with Mauritanian art, which would also be a good thing. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2015, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-whats-wrong-with-it/737271/76 "2015-11-11T20:22:05Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Actually, Paul Simon was attacked, at the time that Graceland was released, with exactly the accusation that he had “stolen” from the musicians and singers with whom he worked. No, as I recall [he was attacked on the grounds that he was breaking the anti-apartheid cultural boycott](http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/culture/lucyjones/100063781/should-paul-simon-have-defied-a-un-boycott-to-make-graceland-in-south-africa-under-apartheid/). It may have been un-PC by some lights, but it’s a completely different issue. Simon’s deep and sincere respect for black South African music is apparent, indeed is the basis for the record. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2015, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-whats-wrong-with-it/737271/77 "2015-11-11T20:28:42Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > I see no difference in nature between stating “don’t wear a war bonnet because it offends people” and “don’t depict Mahomet because it offends people”. Sure, there’s not difference between _stating_ those things. You can state either one of them, and people are free to state opposing viewpoints. Unless of course you are implying something quite beyond civilized discourse. ---
**Author:** ![WF\_Tomba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d9b06d/32.png) [@WF\_Tomba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WF_Tomba)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2015, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-whats-wrong-with-it/737271/78 "2015-11-11T20:41:48Z")
I have sometimes asked myself why the Minnesota Vikings name and logo aren’t considered offensive, especially as compared to the insignia of a certain other NFL team. Part of it’s just that “Vikings” doesn’t sound as ugly and racist as “Redskins”. Part of it is just what you might call white solidarity. We white people understand that we’re all the same race, so if you’re of Scandinavian descent, you won’t be too offended if other white people want to name a football team the Vikings (and then hire a bunch of black people to play on it). Part of it may be the specific history of Scandinavia. The Norse were usually the ones _doing_ the invading and pillaging, not the victims, so their descendants don’t feel like they have an unsettled score. Suppose the English had invaded Norway, flooded it with Englishmen, forced all the locals up into the barren mountains, built an English city where Oslo used to be, and then started a soccer team called New London Vikings? ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2015, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-whats-wrong-with-it/737271/79 "2015-11-11T20:43:57Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > No, as I recall [he was attacked on the grounds that he was breaking the anti-apartheid cultural boycott](http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/culture/lucyjones/100063781/should-paul-simon-have-defied-a-un-boycott-to-make-graceland-in-south-africa-under-apartheid/). It may have been un-PC by some lights, but it’s a completely different issue. Simon’s deep and sincere respect for black South African music is apparent, indeed is the basis for the record. He was also attacked, if I remember right, for not sharing songwriting credit. Some of the musicians on the record (who _were_ credited as instrumentalists) felt that they also deserved songwriting credit. I’m thinking specifically of Los Lobos. Not really a cultural appropriation issue, I guess. More of a financial issue. That said, if cultural appropriation becomes something that is just _not done_ in the art world (and I’m mostly thinking of music here), doesn’t the art just come to a grinding halt? We’d be nowhere without a certain amount of cultural appropriation. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2015, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-whats-wrong-with-it/737271/80 "2015-11-11T20:44:08Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Not only I don’t think that “cultural appropriation” is wrong, and don’t even think that cultural appropriation is a _thing_. “Cultural appropriation” would be something like regularly eating pizza despite not being Italian,which would be a _good_ thing. Or conceivably, decorating your bedroom with Mauritanian art, which would also be a good thing. In the sense that kidnapping is something like adoption, I suppose. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-whats-wrong-with-it/737271.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-appropriation-whats-wrong-with-it/737271.md?page=5)