# Cultural grievance is not a governing agenda! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 5, 2021, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-grievance-is-not-a-governing-agenda/937288 "2021-03-05T18:34:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2021, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-grievance-is-not-a-governing-agenda/937288/21 "2021-03-10T05:07:53Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > Exactly. The only action involved here was _an announcement on the part of the property’s owner_ . Exactly _who_ is engaging in “hypocrisy and illiberalism” that we must oppose here? Apparently, whoever it was that pushed the estate behind the scenes really _really_ hard to “cancel” those books, so much so that the estate felt they “had” to give in. Not that those people exist, of course. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2021, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-grievance-is-not-a-governing-agenda/937288/22 "2021-03-17T17:52:35Z")
Why do conservatives get to whine about Dr. Seuss and Mr. Potato Head? These were corporate decisions to be more inclusive and culturally sensitive. Democrats had diddly-squat to do with these decisions. If they worship the free market so much, why are they whining about corporations acting in what they perceive as their best interest? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2021, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-grievance-is-not-a-governing-agenda/937288/23 "2021-03-17T19:28:27Z")
Because it’s part of a trend of academic institutions, politicians, law enforcement, sports teams, corporations etc. capitulating to the demands of an increasingly dangerous ‘woke’ mob. Even foreign nations are beginning to see the dangers of American wokeness. ---
**Author:** ![TheGunIsMightierThanThePen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thegunismightierthanthepen/32/2981_2.png) [@TheGunIsMightierThanThePen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheGunIsMightierThanThePen)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2021, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-grievance-is-not-a-governing-agenda/937288/24 "2021-03-17T19:32:21Z")
[This guy said it best](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-christian-bookstores-allowed-to-ban-books/937271/729): > [@](#): > > Oh, it’s simple enough: > > Company decisions they agree with are sacrosanct and must be respected as the free market. > > Company decisions they disagree with are the result of “cancel culture” and must be fought against. > > It’s the conservative complainer way: “I want everything my way.” ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2021, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-grievance-is-not-a-governing-agenda/937288/25 "2021-03-17T20:10:03Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > academic institutions, politicians, law enforcement, sports teams, corporations etc. capitulating to the demands of an increasingly dangerous ‘woke’ mob Woo-hoo, another textbook example of the [conservative mythology of “wokeness”!](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/normal-is-the-new-abnormal-forbidden-adjectives/937554/212) > [@Kimstu](#): > > Many “culture wars” conservatives seem to have arrived at their own mythology of “wokeness” that goes roughly as follows: > > 1. Some subject or other is a trivial non-issue (because the conservatives themselves have never encountered it or been bothered by it). > 2. Some white “wokeness” activists accidentally stumbled across this subject and got all upset about it (because the conservatives themselves never see such criticisms until they’ve penetrated into the white-dominated mainstream). > 3. None of the white “wokeness” activists bothered asking any actual minorities what they thought about this subject (because the conservatives themselves generally have no significant contact with minority views and imagine that other white people don’t either). > 4. The white “wokeness” activists stirred up their “internet mobs” to “hysteria” and demanded that this trivial non-issue be changed (because conservative media and politicians have a vested interest in encouraging their audiences to believe that any liberal activism must be scary, lawless and misdirected). > 5. The terrified corporations bowed to the will of the “internet mobs” and made the change (because it doesn’t occur to the conservatives that multinational marketing departments have simply been more observant and aware about the ongoing evolution of such public-relations issues than they themselves have). > 6. Now “everybody” is burdened by having to cope with an “unnecessary” change to a trivial non-issue (because the conservatives are uncomfortable and resentful about the notion that something that they’ve never had a problem with could be considered undesirable enough to be worth changing. See also: the vested interests of conservative media and politicians in point 4). ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2021, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-grievance-is-not-a-governing-agenda/937288/26 "2021-03-17T20:13:54Z")
Illegal suppression of freedom of expression at public colleges and schools, racist policy such as segregation at public schools and colleges, corporate obsequiousness to the woke are not myths. Even Obama thought the ‘progressive’ left was regressive with regards to fundamental freedoms. ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2021, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-grievance-is-not-a-governing-agenda/937288/27 "2021-03-17T20:25:50Z")
What examples would you cite about suppression of freedom of expression at schools and of segregation at colleges and schools? I’ve never seen the signs like in the history books where the water fountains are labeled separately for white and colored people and such. What in particular are you referring to? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2021, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-grievance-is-not-a-governing-agenda/937288/28 "2021-03-17T20:34:43Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > corporate obsequiousness to the woke Where was all this “concern” in the case of, for example, corporate obsequiousness to the patriotic, or corporate obsequiousness to the religious? Why is it perfectly okay for corporations to cater to consumers who like American-flag iconography on their stuff, or who like stores that close on Sundays, but not okay for corporations to cater to consumers who like diverse and inclusive imagery in corporate marketing? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2021, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-grievance-is-not-a-governing-agenda/937288/29 "2021-03-17T20:35:21Z")
Segregated dorms, campus spaces, and graduation ceremonies are unknown to you? > **[Racial Segregation On American Campuses: A Widespread Phenomenon](https://www.forbes.com/sites/richardvedder/2018/11/15/racial-segregation-on-american-campuses-a-widespread-phenomenon/?sh=c4124a544552)** > > A new racial segregation has crept onto many American campuses: racially-based housing and recreational facilities for example. This is counter to the principles of the civil rights movement and a color-blind society. > **[Do Colleges Actually Welcome Segregation on Campus?](https://observer.com/2019/05/college-campus-segregation-commencements/)** > > A National Association of Scholars survey of 173 public and private colleges and universities found that 71 percent have some version of voluntary segregation. > **[New York University moves to implement racial segregation in student dorms](https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2020/08/24/nyur-a24.html)** > > Calls for race-based student housing stem not from a desire to improve the lives of all students and youth, but to advance the interests of a small layer of the population. And speech codes at a public university has been consistently struck down by the courts when actually challenged. > **[Homepage - Freedom Forum](https://www.freedomforum.org/)** > > The Freedom Forum’s mission is to foster First Amendment freedoms for all. > **[State of the Law: Speech Codes](https://www.thefire.org/research-learn/state-law-speech-codes)** > **[Speech on Campus](https://www.aclu.org/other/speech-campus)** > > The First Amendment to the Constitution protects speech no matter how offensive its content. Restrictions on speech by public colleges and universities amount to government censorship, in violation ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2021, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-grievance-is-not-a-governing-agenda/937288/30 "2021-03-17T20:40:17Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Segregated dorms, campus spaces, and graduation ceremonies are unknown to you? Some of those I was, in fact, not aware of. I’ll agree that things like separate graduation ceremonies, dorm rooms, and gyms for racial minorities is taking things too far. I don’t see that those sorts of things accomplish anything useful and, subject to additional information that I may be unaware coming to light about those programs, I will come out as being against such things. As far as hate speech goes, however, I have no problem with campuses banning it. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2021, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-grievance-is-not-a-governing-agenda/937288/31 "2021-03-17T20:40:51Z")
A small store closed on Sunday or selling an American flag, how provocative!, has nowhere near the impact that Apple, Google, or Amazon does when they cater to the woke mob. Nor do they have the impact that law enforcement and district attorneys have when they fail to arrest and prosecute woke anarchists who engage in theft and destruction in order to advance a work agenda. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2021, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-grievance-is-not-a-governing-agenda/937288/32 "2021-03-17T20:41:45Z")
Define hate speech. Furthermore, it’s unconstitutional for public universities to suppress speech. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2021, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-grievance-is-not-a-governing-agenda/937288/33 "2021-03-17T20:44:00Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Segregated dorms, campus spaces, and graduation ceremonies are unknown to you? Those opinion pieces you linked are basically just conservative clickbait hyperbolically claiming “segregation” for rhetorical purposes. For example, colleges do not have separate official graduation ceremonies for students of different races. Many minority student groups on college campuses hold their own additional ceremonies/celebrations for their members, as do, e.g., some honor societies and some fraternities and sororities. But the actual official graduation ceremony includes all members of the graduating class. Referring to that as “segregated graduation ceremonies” is pretty ridiculous, but par for the course for this sort of “oh noes the liberals are the REAL racists!” propaganda. ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2021, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-grievance-is-not-a-governing-agenda/937288/34 "2021-03-17T20:45:53Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Define hate speech. Furthermore, it’s unconstitutional for public universities to suppress speech. At its most basic, it comes down to the reason for the hate. Someone from the majority group, let’s say group A, saying I hate (general) you because you are B, C, D, or E is hate speech. Things like calling people the n word, a fag, etc. The natural reaction of someone from group B, C, D, or E replying I hate you because you hate me (as opposed to I hate you because you’re an A) is not hate speech. That’s just a natural response to getting shit on by someone. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2021, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-grievance-is-not-a-governing-agenda/937288/35 "2021-03-17T20:50:10Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > A small store closed on Sunday Well gee, TIL that the Hobby Lobby and Chik-fil-A national chains, for example, are “small stores”. > [@octopus](#): > > or selling an American flag, how provocative!, has nowhere near the impact that Apple, Google, or Amazon does ? You think Amazon, for example, doesn’t sell American flags, or American-flag-themed merchandise? Again, this is just more conservative propaganda where it’s taken for granted that companies catering to consumer desires that conservatives are comfortable with are behaving normally and unexceptionably. While companies catering to consumer desires for, e.g., diversity and inclusivity in their marketing messages are “bowing to the mob”. This has nothing to do with “impact” or “anarchists” or “theft”, and everything to do with the fact that conservatives in general simply feel more comfortable about American flags than they do about, e.g., pictures of interracial or same-sex couples. ---
**Author:** ![etasyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9f8e36/32.png) [@etasyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etasyde)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2021, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-grievance-is-not-a-governing-agenda/937288/36 "2021-03-17T20:52:41Z")
I rarely **ever** find myself in agreement with Octopus on _anything_, but… > [@octopus](#): > > Illegal suppression of freedom of expression at public colleges and schools, racist policy such as segregation at public schools and colleges, corporate obsequiousness to the woke …is true. Tribalism just makes it very hard for other left wing people to see. I always suggest that any time two groups (or proxies for groups) are treated in any way differently, swap the two groups and see if the statement is then offensive. If it is, you’re a -ist making -ist statements. > [@FlikTheBlue](#): > > Someone from the majority group, let’s say group A, saying I hate (general) you because you are B, C, D, or E is hate speech. Here’s an example right as I type. That’s just racism with language to mask it behind a proxy definition. Since “white people” are always the majority, you have made a rule for white people by proxy that doesn’t apply to anyone else. That’s discriminatory and/or preferential treatment based on race. That’s racism. And I don’t say this to be offensive, so please don’t take it that way. I feel it’s _really_ important to have self reflection when talking about moral issues. How about instead we say “No one should hate anyone because they belong to race/group A,B, or C?” Why does the white-people proxy _need_ to be part of it if your aim is to _oppose_ discrimination based on race? ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2021, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-grievance-is-not-a-governing-agenda/937288/37 "2021-03-17T20:53:57Z")
I bought my last flag from Amazon just about a month ago. They sell lots of American Flags. I don’t think **octopus** suggested they don’t sell them though. I’m not sure what his point was, but it wasn’t that. ETA: Not that anyone is wondering, but Amazon also sells the Flag cases for Veteran Burial Flags. I got the one for my father’s flag from them. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2021, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-grievance-is-not-a-governing-agenda/937288/38 "2021-03-17T20:54:39Z")
I’m sure friend octopus is being consistent here. I am quite confident he was quite vocal in his objections to the cancellation of Colin Kaepernick for example, and certainly stood up when the Dixie Chicks were cancelled by those who objected to their exercise of free speech. I will just go and search for friend octopus’s consistency about those cancellations now. \< time passes \> Hmmm… Can’t seem to find anything. ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2021, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-grievance-is-not-a-governing-agenda/937288/39 "2021-03-17T20:57:13Z")
> [@etasyde](#): > > Here’s an example right as I type. That’s just racism with language to mask it behind a proxy definition. Since “white people” are always the majority, you have made a rule for white people by proxy that doesn’t apply to anyone else. > > That’s discriminatory and/or preferential treatment based on race. That’s racism. > > And I don’t say this to be offensive, so please don’t take it that way. I feel it’s _really_ important to have self reflection when talking about moral issues. > > How about instead we say “No one should hate anyone because they belong to race/group A,B, or C?” Why does the white-people proxy _need_ to be part of it if your aim is to _oppose_ discrimination based on race? I made it general because, believe it or not, there are places where white people are not in the majority. And I did specifically imply (although I didn’t state it outright, maybe I should have) that if some member of a minority group hates someone because they are a member of the majority group, that is also racism. But I still defend my statement that it is NOT racist to reply “I hate you because you hate me” in response to someone else’s racism. The alternative is to accept getting shit on without responding, and that has never accomplished anything anywhere. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2021, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-grievance-is-not-a-governing-agenda/937288/40 "2021-03-17T20:59:36Z")
Oh, gosh that again? First one doesn’t have to seek out and protest every injustice to have the right to campaign against injustice. Second, you obviously didn’t even search my post history with regards to Kaepernick. Want me to search and post some links for you? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-grievance-is-not-a-governing-agenda/937288.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-grievance-is-not-a-governing-agenda/937288.md?page=3)