# Cultural relativism can bite my ass: gang-rape in rural Pakistan **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 11, 2002, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-relativism-can-bite-my-ass-gang-rape-in-rural-pakistan/118465 "2002-07-11T18:08:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Beadalin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@Beadalin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beadalin)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2002, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-relativism-can-bite-my-ass-gang-rape-in-rural-pakistan/118465/1 "2002-07-11T18:08:53Z")
Reuters [reported](http://news.excite.com/article/id/250994%7Coddlyenough%7C07-11-2002::10:58%7Creuters.html) that a woman in Pakistan was gang-raped, by village jury order, “to atone for her brother’s alleged affair with a girl from a different tribe.” How the _fuck_ does a society, no matter how small, get so twisted that this could ever be considered acceptable? There is no defense for this. None. It’s good that the Pakistani Supreme Court has become involved, and I’ll for damn sure follow the story to see if justice is even remotely served. Humanity is endlessly disappointing, to say the least. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2002, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-relativism-can-bite-my-ass-gang-rape-in-rural-pakistan/118465/2 "2002-07-11T19:03:11Z")
If this is what I suspect it is there was already another pit thread about it (mentioning gang-raping your sister in the title) and it was mentioned that there was not a society per se which endoresed this, but rather a small group of individuals _ala_ Jonestown. Again, IIRC. ---
**Author:** ![Beadalin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@Beadalin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beadalin)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2002, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-relativism-can-bite-my-ass-gang-rape-in-rural-pakistan/118465/3 "2002-07-11T19:14:37Z")
Oh-- I didn’t see the other Pit thread, but I’ve been mostly offline recently. Anyway, I wasn’t condemning Pakistani society as a whole, just the village’s particular one. Hence my, “no matter how small” comment: they are their own society. As far as I can tell, this isn’t a group of people under the sway of a particularly charismatic/psychotic cult leader, ala Jonestown. This is a whole village that acted in accordance to the directives of village leader **s**. To me, it’s by far a different animal from Heaven’s Gate or Branch Davidian or what have you. Cults I can comprehend. Rape under the guise of lawfulness I can’t. ---
**Author:** ![CRorex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dfb087/32.png) [@CRorex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CRorex)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2002, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-relativism-can-bite-my-ass-gang-rape-in-rural-pakistan/118465/4 "2002-07-11T19:28:12Z")
If I remember correctly, part of Islamic law, or maybe custom from the people in someplaces (who are muslim) getting raped was the woman’s fault. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2002, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-relativism-can-bite-my-ass-gang-rape-in-rural-pakistan/118465/5 "2002-07-11T19:43:07Z")
I find citing Jones himself for Jonestown to miss the point, though… charismatic leader or no, what we have is a small group of decidedly wierd individuals doing things the rest of us find to be beyond reproach. > [@](#): > > Cults I can comprehend. Rape under the guise of lawfulness I can’t. Well, given your disdain for moral relativism I guess so. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2002, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-relativism-can-bite-my-ass-gang-rape-in-rural-pakistan/118465/6 "2002-07-11T19:51:38Z")
Also, I should say: > [@](#): > > Cults I can comprehend. Rape under the guise of lawfulness I can’t. I can’t understand it either, which is why I would condemn such an action. But it seems beyond obvious that if I were them I wouldn’t think that way. 😉 That poor girl, though… ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Efrem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@Efrem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Efrem)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2002, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-relativism-can-bite-my-ass-gang-rape-in-rural-pakistan/118465/7 "2002-07-11T19:59:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by CRorex \* > \*\*If I remember correctly, part of Islamic law, or maybe custom from the people in someplaces (who are muslim) getting raped was the woman’s fault. \*\* You are very much mistaken. Under Islamic law rape is not “the woman’s fault” and in fact rape is considered to be very wrong in which all rapists are to be executed. ---
**Author:** ![Efrem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@Efrem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Efrem)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2002, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-relativism-can-bite-my-ass-gang-rape-in-rural-pakistan/118465/8 "2002-07-11T20:02:41Z")
I would like to know who (or where) you are refering to in your comment that > [@](#): > > maybe custom from the people in someplaces (who are muslim) getting raped was the woman’s fault. ---
**Author:** ![CRorex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dfb087/32.png) [@CRorex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CRorex)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2002, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-relativism-can-bite-my-ass-gang-rape-in-rural-pakistan/118465/9 "2002-07-11T20:11:26Z")
Lord I’ll explain it more carefully. I remember from a course I took on religious/cultural law the prof saying something about the odd restrictions placed on a woman’s role in society. Basically: If the woman was raped she was in a place she shouldn’t be, like not in the home and not near her male relatives. And she would suffer the punishment for adultery, aka stoning. Or it could have been if a married woman was raped she was guilty of adultery. One of those two. Now the problem is I can’t remember if it was a RELIGIOUS dohicky, or a cultural one. But I do remember it being from a group of people in the middle east or western asia, both places with large muslim populations. And I also vaguely remember stoning being a punishment for quite a lot of things in the middle east. And I was also trying to indelicately point out that it could either be islamic law, or it could be cultural law in a muslim population. But I can’t remember for certain. ---
**Author:** ![Ferrous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Ferrous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferrous)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2002, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-relativism-can-bite-my-ass-gang-rape-in-rural-pakistan/118465/10 "2002-07-11T20:20:15Z")
The other thread, if you’re interested: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=123565](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=123565) ---
**Author:** ![Beadalin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@Beadalin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beadalin)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2002, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-relativism-can-bite-my-ass-gang-rape-in-rural-pakistan/118465/11 "2002-07-11T20:31:22Z")
Thanks, **Ferrous**. Sorry to be covering old ground. ---
**Author:** ![CRorex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dfb087/32.png) [@CRorex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CRorex)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2002, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-relativism-can-bite-my-ass-gang-rape-in-rural-pakistan/118465/12 "2002-07-11T20:42:07Z")
Oh yeah I didn’t have a point either. I was just throwing out another odd tidbit of justice from the more or less same geographical region (we had a great debate about it. Nothing like english lawyers to argue about punishment) ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2002, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-relativism-can-bite-my-ass-gang-rape-in-rural-pakistan/118465/13 "2002-07-12T11:06:37Z")
How would you like it if everytime there is a Klan lynching people started talking about The Bible? These clowns in Pakistan are as far from Islam as the Klan is from Christianity. They should be arrested, tried, convicted and punished. I am willing to consider gang rape as the start of the punishment for the people who killed Danial Pearl, however. ---
**Author:** ![Neptune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5a626/32.png) [@Neptune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neptune)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2002, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-relativism-can-bite-my-ass-gang-rape-in-rural-pakistan/118465/14 "2002-07-12T11:29:46Z")
> [@](#): > > None of this is to suggest that men in power didn’t or don’t use their positions to extort sex from women. But since when did some creep with a sword (gun, fancy office, drill sergeant’s stripes) figure he needed a law to justify rape? [http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a5\_181.html](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a5_181.html) ---
**Author:** ![hawthorne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@hawthorne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hawthorne)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2002, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-relativism-can-bite-my-ass-gang-rape-in-rural-pakistan/118465/15 "2002-07-12T14:34:52Z")
Update: The story keeps getting uglier. > [@](#): > > A provincial government inquiry into the June 22 punitive gang rape found three Mastoi tribesmen had earlier sodomised her 11-year-old brother. > > The high-caste tribesmen subsequently tried to cover up their act by accusing the pre-pubescent boy of “illicit” relations with a 30-year-old Mastoi woman. [from [here](http://www.abc.net.au/news/2002/07/item20020713000133_1.htm)] ---
**Author:** ![Efrem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@Efrem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Efrem)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2002, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-relativism-can-bite-my-ass-gang-rape-in-rural-pakistan/118465/16 "2002-09-01T13:19:09Z")
Another Update: It seems that six have been found guilty and sentenced under Sharia, where Rapists are to be exicuted. > [@](#): > > A special court in Pakistan has found six men guilty of their part in the gang-rape of a woman - a case which has provoked national outrage. > > All six - including two men from a self-appointed tribal council in a remote part of Punjab province - have been sentenced to death by hanging. The full BBC article can be found [here](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/2228179.stm) ---
**Author:** ![Testy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c37758/32.png) [@Testy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Testy)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2002, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-relativism-can-bite-my-ass-gang-rape-in-rural-pakistan/118465/17 "2002-09-01T14:23:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Paul in Saudi \* > \*\*How would you like it if everytime there is a Klan lynching people started talking about The Bible? > > These clowns in Pakistan are as far from Islam as the Klan is from Christianity. They should be arrested, tried, convicted and punished. > > I am willing to consider gang rape as the start of the punishment for the people who killed Danial Pearl, however. \*\* Well, talking about the bible after a lynching wouldn’t particularly bother me. I don’t buy into **that** either. We’ll have to have **saudidope** some day. I suspect it’ll be a bit quieter than most though.😃 Testy. ---
**Author:** ![hansel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6bbea6/32.png) [@hansel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hansel)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2002, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-relativism-can-bite-my-ass-gang-rape-in-rural-pakistan/118465/18 "2002-09-01T15:37:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Efrem \* > \*\*You are very much mistaken. Under Islamic law rape is not “the woman’s fault” and in fact rape is considered to be very wrong in which all rapists are to be executed. \*\* The problem being that, under Sharia law, a woman’s word is inherently less reliable than a man’s. If a man rapes a woman without any witnesses, and the woman publicly accuses him of rape, his word is taken over hers that it was consensual, and she’s just confessed to adultery, for which the penalty is death. This is The Prophet’s haddith: > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Mohammed_ > \*\*" I have seen none having more of a shortcoming in reasoning and religion [than women] yet, at the same time, robbing the wisdom of the wisest men than you." They said, “O Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) what is the shortcoming in our reasoning?” He said “Is it not the case that the testimony of two women is equivalent to that of one man” They said, “O Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him), what is the shortcoming in our religion” He said, "Is it not the case that when you have your menses you neither pray or fast?’’ \*\*[_Recorded by al-Bukhari_] Underlining is mine. Since two women equal one man, where testimony is concerned, the testimony of a woman who is raped is equal to half that of the man who raped her. [if the _originally posted by Mohammed_ joke is offensive to you, Efrem, I’ll email a mod and ask them to change it] ---
**Author:** ![celestina](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/258eb7/32.png) [@celestina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/celestina)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2002, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-relativism-can-bite-my-ass-gang-rape-in-rural-pakistan/118465/19 "2002-09-02T08:05:21Z")
This whole situation is just awful. I know I’m viewing this from a 21st Century Western perspective, but I don’t care what someone has done, it does not justify raping innocent folks who’ve committed no crime and who have no legal redress or even means to physically defend themselves against mob rule, and in the case of these poor women and the boy who’ve been raped, they were subjected to mob rule. IMHO the folks who stood back and watched it happen are just as guilty as the actual rapists, and they ought to be ashamed of themselves! I’m just floored by the fact that no one moved to help these poor women who had committed no crime and the 11 year old boy who had not been convicted of any crime and that it was possibly because they themselves were afraid of having the crowd punish them for trying to come to the aid of innocent people. Or, if the crowd didn’t help because they believed that these women and the boy deserved to be punished, then that’s even more fucked up. Them folks need to step back and take a good look at themselves and the culture of terror and repression they are perpetuating because something ain’t addin’ up right. How can anyone live in peace, spread love, and have any kind of community that can progress if men can just terrorize women, children, and generally folks who are of lesser status whenever they want to under the so-called “auspices” of tribal law? I detest killing and violence, but I kind of wish in this case that rather than executing the rapists, they’d castrate them and put them in jail for life, leaving them plenty of time to ponder the error of their ways. And another thing. I am just _tired_ of seeing folks just coming up with these random numbers to justify the erroneous assumption that men are superior to women. _Why_ is it that it takes the word of 2 women to equal the word of 1 man?! I mean if folks are going to go all hog wild assigning crazy numbers and shit, why isn’t it that it takes the word of 5 women to equal that of 1 man, or what about 3.7 women to equal 1 man? What’s so special about the number 2? Or why isn’t it that it’d take the word of 5 men to equal the word of one woman, or 3.7 men to equal that of 1 woman, or even the word of 2 men to equal the word of 1 woman? All of this makes about as much sense as saying that enslaved African Americans were 3/5 human. I’m still trying to figure out where _that_ particular number came from. [sniff] What is going on with all these random numbers that folks are just throwing around? 😕 I know I can’t count, but even to me this just doesn’t make any damn sense at all, and I don’t care if Mohammed, Buddha, God, Jesus Christ, the Supreme Court, or Joe Blow on the street is credited with saying it. There’s no empirical evidence nor justification within the bounds of reason for folks believing that mess, and it just hurts my logical sensibilities and frightens the hell out of me to think that so many folks _do_ believe it. :mad: ---
**Author:** ![lurkernomore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d6d6ee/32.png) [@lurkernomore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lurkernomore)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2002, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-relativism-can-bite-my-ass-gang-rape-in-rural-pakistan/118465/20 "2002-09-02T15:06:18Z")
Celestina, ``` Been a while since history class, but IIRC the 3/5 compromise was negotiated. States with a lot of slaves wanted the slaves to count toward congressional representation, and the non-slave states wanted to only count free people, as slaves were "property", not people. I think it was just used to determine reps in Congress. ``` [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-relativism-can-bite-my-ass-gang-rape-in-rural-pakistan/118465.md?page=2)