# Cultural villains in non-Western countries **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 12, 2017, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-villains-in-non-western-countries/779608 "2017-02-12T00:36:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2017, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-villains-in-non-western-countries/779608/1 "2017-02-12T00:36:57Z")
The list of commonly referenced evil leaders in Western culture goes something like Hitler, Stalin, Wilhelm II, Napoleon, Genghis Khan, Attila the Hun, and Pontius Pilate. In America, there’s often references to various serial killers or cult leaders, like Charles Manson, John Wayne Gacy, or Jack the Ripper. “Drinking the kool-aid” is a reference to the Jim Jones cult. For white collar crime, it’s Bernie Madoff. Traitors would be called Judas, Brutus, or in America, Benedict Arnold. A puppet or collaberator would be called a quisling, a reference to Vidkun Quisling. So who are the villains in the popular imagination of non-Western countries? I could guess some, like various Mongol leaders, Tamerlane, Alexander the Great, some popes, various Chinese leaders, but that’s pretty general and I’m curious about more concrete examples. Like would [Thug Behram](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thug_Behram) be the Indian version of Jack the Ripper that people there would know, or more like obscure trivia? ---
**Author:** ![Evan\_Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@Evan\_Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evan_Drake)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2017, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-villains-in-non-western-countries/779608/2 "2017-02-12T02:47:43Z")
Wilhelm II ? Napoleon ? Genghis Khan ? Apart from the fact the first two are people fought against by the Anglosphere — kinda dodgy as criterion, you might as well throw in Oom Paul Kruger and Geronimo — although Napoleon was pretty much the same as Hitler, and caused equal relative disaster for his time, no-one now would call him ‘evil’, ( from his own estimation ‘Au fond, I’m not such a bad sort of chap’ ). Certainly a scoundrel, but too banal ( despite his genius ) to be a devil. Kaiser Bill was amiable enough, and though he’s too far away for us to know him, Genghis was just another successful conqueror, leading the greatest warriors in the world. > [@](#): > > Traitors would be called Judas, Brutus, or in America, Benedict Arnold. Or in Britain: George Washington. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2017, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-villains-in-non-western-countries/779608/3 "2017-02-12T03:13:20Z")
Japan has some interesting ones, particularly so because they tend to be either heroes or villains as the work requires. For example, Oda Nobunaga can either be the heroic champion, a man who loved battle but wanted to reunite the country or, well, an actual [Demonic Lord of Hell](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DemonKingNobunaga). The guy who killed him, Akechi Mitsuhide, often gets the same treatment. As do the two Shogun who followed him, Toyatomi Hideyoshi and Tokugawa Ieyasu. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2017, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-villains-in-non-western-countries/779608/4 "2017-02-12T03:19:12Z")
In Panama, [Pedrarias](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedro_Arias_D%C3%A1vila) (Pedro Arias de Avila) is the great cultural villain. The Spanish governor of Panama, he had his rival Vasco Nunez de Balboa, the discoverer of the Pacific, executed on trumped up charges. Although Pedrarias founded the city of Panama in 1519, there is not one single street or square or public building named after him, and no statues. I am only aware of one small bust at the original site of the city. In contrast, Balboa is regarded as the great cultural hero. One of the most important streets in the city is named after him, where there is a very conspicuous statue. A neighborhood as well as the currency and one of the most popular beers are also named after him. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2017, 9:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-villains-in-non-western-countries/779608/5 "2017-02-12T09:34:02Z")
I remember watching a Korean martial-arts film in the 70’s set at some time in the mythical past, in which the villian (spit) was Japanese. I was watching a Chinese matial-arts fantasy when she pointed out that the good guys (the locals) were speeking Shanghainese, and the bad guys (from out of town) were speaking Mandarin. ---
**Author:** ![Zach29](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Zach29](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zach29)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2017, 9:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-villains-in-non-western-countries/779608/6 "2017-02-12T09:37:33Z")
In modern Chinese society it’s the Japanese. With all the horrible atrocities that were committed against Chinese people during the occupation. While Chinese society has now been able to develop cordial relations with the Japanese, Chinese will still take any excuse to denigrate the Japanese and their culture as dysfunctional (or ridicule them as inferior). ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2017, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-villains-in-non-western-countries/779608/7 "2017-02-12T11:21:02Z")
> [@Evan\_Drake](#): > > … Napoleon ? Genghis Khan ? [Here’s where the French dumped the body of their evil leader Napoleon Bonaparte](http://en.parisinfo.com/var/otcp/sites/images/node_43/node_51/node_77884/node_77888/mus%C3%A9e-de-l'arm%C3%A9e-tombeau-de-napol%C3%A9on-eglise-du-d%C3%B4me-%7C-630x405-%7C-%C2%A9-otcp-dr/15556951-1-fre-FR/Mus%C3%A9e-de-l'Arm%C3%A9e-Tombeau-de-Napol%C3%A9on-Eglise-du-D%C3%B4me-%7C-630x405-%7C-%C2%A9-OTCP-DR.jpg). I hope they showed a little more respect than this for leaders they admired. The Mongols were so disgusted by Genghis Khan that they buried him in an unmarked grave. They did [erect a small memento for him though.](http://joshuakucera.typepad.com/.a/6a01053643553b970b01310fb871fc970c-pi) ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2017, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-villains-in-non-western-countries/779608/8 "2017-02-12T13:32:46Z")
The argument about the character and influence (good or bad) of Napoleon over Europe is fought as hard as any of his battles. It would be worth a whole thread of its own. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2017, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-villains-in-non-western-countries/779608/9 "2017-02-12T15:53:27Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > The Mongols were so disgusted by Genghis Khan that they buried him in an unmarked grave. That was a Mongol tradition - and he specifically asked for that kind of burial if any of the stories about it are to be believed. There are many myths about his death (we don’t know the circumstances at all), but his form of burial was by no means an insult to his memory. ---
**Author:** ![Teuton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/teuton/32/3864_2.png) [@Teuton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Teuton)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2017, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-villains-in-non-western-countries/779608/10 "2017-02-12T16:38:45Z")
> [@Evan\_Drake](#): > > Or in Britain: George Washington. Nobody in Britain that I know would use George Washington to culturally reference a traitor. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2017, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-villains-in-non-western-countries/779608/11 "2017-02-12T16:44:56Z")
[King Leopold II](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopold_II_of_Belgium) of Belgium might be the greatest villain of Africa due to the atrocities he inflicted on the Congo Free State, now the Democratic Republic of the Congo. I would think that any number of other colonialists would not be remembered fondly in Africa, such as General[Lothar von Trotha,](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lothar_von_Trotha) who was responsible for the genocidal campaign against the Herero in Namibia. [William Walker](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Walker_(filibuster)), an American who made himself president of Nicaragua in 1856, is the great villain of Central American history. There are statues all over the place commemorating his defeat by a coalition of Central American countries. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2017, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-villains-in-non-western-countries/779608/12 "2017-02-12T16:47:29Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > That was a Mongol tradition - and he specifically asked for that kind of burial if any of the stories about it are to be believed. There are many myths about his death (we don’t know the circumstances at all), but his form of burial was by no means an insult to his memory. Thanks. I figured the Mongols were mistreating their great khan’s body similar to the way the French mistreated the body of their Emperor. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2017, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-villains-in-non-western-countries/779608/13 "2017-02-12T18:49:45Z")
If you think the figures I listed in the OP aren’t demonized in Western culture now or in the past I don’t know what to say. Hopefully you know what I’m looking for anyway. Pointing out ethnic or religious tensions is too general, like saying Protestants and Catholics don’t like each other. Cromwell would be a more specific case. > [@Colibri](#): > > [King Leopold II](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopold_II_of_Belgium) of Belgium might be the greatest villain of Africa due to the atrocities he inflicted on the Congo Free State, now the Democratic Republic of the Congo. But is he actually a cultural villain? Do Congolese or other African people say stuff like, “Man, you’re a jerk. You’re worse than Leopold!” or “My boss is such a slave driver, he’s basically Leopold.” ---
**Author:** ![Asuka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@Asuka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asuka)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2017, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-villains-in-non-western-countries/779608/14 "2017-02-12T19:11:04Z")
> [@Zach29](#): > > In modern Chinese society it’s the Japanese. With all the horrible atrocities that were committed against Chinese people during the occupation. While Chinese society has now been able to develop cordial relations with the Japanese, Chinese will still take any excuse to denigrate the Japanese and their culture as dysfunctional (or ridicule them as inferior). In China’s version of the America’s Army game (Government funded online FPS intended to boost military recruitment) the enemies you fight in the game are modern US soldiers, Russian soldiers, … and 1940’s era Imperial Japanese Soldiers complete with katanas and banzai attacks. In a game with modern Chinese weapons and uniforms. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2017, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-villains-in-non-western-countries/779608/15 "2017-02-12T19:15:31Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > But is he actually a cultural villain? Do Congolese or other African people say stuff like, “Man, you’re a jerk. You’re worse than Leopold!” or “My boss is such a slave driver, he’s basically Leopold.” I think the man in the street would be more likely to reference someone more recent, like Mobutu. But I think when African nationalists want to condemn Western imperialism they might well bring up figures like Leopold. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2017, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-villains-in-non-western-countries/779608/16 "2017-02-12T19:40:37Z")
God knows Israelis have a choice of historical enemies to choose from. They include the Ancient Egyptians, the Amalek, the Philistines, the Assyrians, the Babylonians, the Greeks, the Romans, the Catholic Church, the Spanish, the Cossacks, the Germans… we’ve been blessed with plenty of nations to resent. As for individuals, I’d say the big ones are Hitler (natch), Pharaoh (the one from Exodus), Haman (the one from Esther) and Antiochus (IV, the guy the Maccabees were rebelling against). ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2017, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-villains-in-non-western-countries/779608/17 "2017-02-12T21:01:10Z")
> [@Teuton](#): > > Nobody in Britain that I know would use George Washington to culturally reference a traitor. +1. He’s simply thought of as the first POTUS, in as much as he’s thought of at all. Although if you’re of Iroquois descent you might look unfavourably on the Virginian surveyor who was nicknamed _Conotocaurious_ by their forebears, roughly ‘town destroyer/village burner’. If you’re Armenian [Talaat Pasha](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talaat_Pasha), widely regarded as one of the principle architects of the Armenian genocide. The Norwegian [Vidkun Quisling](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vidkun_Quisling) both in his homeland and beyond has become a byword for a treasonous collaborator. If you’re an Indian Buddhist, , a 6th century emperor who is described on an [Indian government site](http://knowindia.gov.in/knowindia/culture_heritage.php?id=15) as _“…a cruel barbarian and one of the worst tyrants known.”_ ---
**Author:** ![hibernicus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hibernicus/32/2802_2.png) [@hibernicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hibernicus)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2017, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-villains-in-non-western-countries/779608/18 "2017-02-12T23:26:36Z")
[Robert Lundy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Lundy) is burned in effigy every year by Northern Ireland unionists, among whom the word “lundy” is used as a synonym for traitor. Oliver Cromwell is probably considered the greatest villain in Irish history. In Britain, I would guess Richard III and Guy Fawkes each have a claim on cultural villainhood. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2017, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-villains-in-non-western-countries/779608/19 "2017-02-12T23:41:56Z")
> [@Teuton](#): > > Nobody in Britain that I know would use George Washington to culturally reference a traitor. Often so referenced in humour, though. ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2017, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-villains-in-non-western-countries/779608/20 "2017-02-12T23:56:41Z")
Of course many of these are historical figures, even in non-Western countries. And some people who were officially reviled were heroes to others – Luther, Jan Hus, etc. In Mexico, Hernan Cortes, Santa Anna and Porforio Diaz remain unpopular. The English AFAIK don’t think too negatively of George Washington. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-villains-in-non-western-countries/779608.md?page=2)