# Cultural villains in non-Western countries **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 12, 2017, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-villains-in-non-western-countries/779608 "2017-02-12T00:36:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-villains-in-non-western-countries/779608/21 "2017-02-13T04:48:23Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > Alexander the Great In Islamic Persian tradition Alexander the Great is literally portrayed as Satan incarnate. Interestingly he was also portrayed as being [horned](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysimachus#/media/File:LysimachusCoinWithHornedAlexander.jpg) in Hellenic culture, but that was a positive thing (his horns denoted his decent from Dionysus) ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-villains-in-non-western-countries/779608/22 "2017-02-13T04:56:53Z")
What do the Latin American countries think of Christopher Columbus? They call October 12 Dia de la Raza, not Columbus Day. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-villains-in-non-western-countries/779608/23 "2017-02-13T05:06:24Z")
> [@Teuton](#): > > Nobody in Britain that I know would use George Washington to culturally reference a traitor. Indeed. He had his British admirers, then and now: [http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/9204961/George-Washington-named-Britains-greatest-ever-foe.html](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/9204961/George-Washington-named-Britains-greatest-ever-foe.html) > **[George Washington - National Portrait Gallery](https://www.npg.org.uk/collections/search/person/mp04716/george-washington)** > > First President of the United States > Born in Virginia, at the time a colony of Britain, Washington was the son of a planter. Despite a formal education lasting only a few years, he taught himself planting and land surveying by reading books and... > **[George Washington](https://www.londonremembers.com/memorials/george-washington)** > > The marble original is in Richmond, Virginia, USA. This bronze copy was presented by the Commonwealth of Virginia. There is a story that, since Washington once said he would never stand on English ground, this statue was supplied with some good ol'... ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-villains-in-non-western-countries/779608/24 "2017-02-13T06:09:26Z")
Although the First Jewish War was is generally better remembered (With the siege of Masada etc). In Jewish tradition the Third Jewish War is considered a bigger calamity, so much so that Hadrian, the Roman Emperor in charge during the conflict, is always given the epitaph “May His Bones Be Crushed” when he is mentioned in Jewish sources (not something ever done to the Emperors in charge during the First Jewish War) ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-villains-in-non-western-countries/779608/25 "2017-02-13T06:46:25Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > So who are the villains in the popular imagination of non-Western countries? Well, here in South Africa, I think you’ll find it’s often Westerners… ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-villains-in-non-western-countries/779608/26 "2017-02-13T07:51:01Z")
Although not entirely negative the [Nahua wife of conquistador Cortes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Malinche) is considered a legendary cultural villain by many in Central America. ---
**Author:** ![Some\_Call\_Me.Tim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Some\_Call\_Me.Tim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Some_Call_Me.Tim)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-villains-in-non-western-countries/779608/27 "2017-02-13T18:33:06Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > [William Walker](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Walker_(filibuster)), an American who made himself president of Nicaragua in 1856, is the great villain of Central American history. There are statues all over the place commemorating his defeat by a coalition of Central American countries. And he mostly did it by [filibustering](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filibuster_%28military%29)! Truly an evil man. ---
**Author:** ![JustinC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justinc/32/8083_2.png) [@JustinC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JustinC)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-villains-in-non-western-countries/779608/28 "2017-02-13T19:19:24Z")
> [@Teuton](#): > > Nobody in Britain that I know would use George Washington to culturally reference a traitor. Nobody in Britain that I know would use George Washington to culturally reference _anything_. Just as William Pitt the Younger would be completely unknown to 99% of Americans, most British people would recognise the name but have no reference other than he was important once. ---
**Author:** ![Teuton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/teuton/32/3864_2.png) [@Teuton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Teuton)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-villains-in-non-western-countries/779608/29 "2017-02-13T19:43:28Z")
> [@JustinC](#): > > Nobody in Britain that I know would use George Washington to culturally reference _anything_. Just as William Pitt the Younger would be completely unknown to 99% of Americans, most British people would recognise the name but have no reference other than he was important once. Indeed. I suspect most people know he was a President, less people would know he was the first. I’d be surprised if most people actually knew he was British, to be honest. A few British villains that haven’t been mentioned yet (and I know the OP wanted non-Western, but I like to feel I’m contributing): [Lord Haw Haw](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_Haw-Haw) probably doesn’t get referenced as often as he used to, but he’s still a recognisable traitor in the Quisling mode. [Lord Lucan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Bingham,_7th_Earl_of_Lucan) killed his family and ran away (probably), but tends to be more referenced in a comic, “Is this a good time to mention that I am actually Lord Lucan?” kind of way than as a murderer. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-villains-in-non-western-countries/779608/30 "2017-02-13T20:03:16Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > What do the Latin American countries think of Christopher Columbus? They call October 12 Dia de la Raza, not Columbus Day. It depends very much how much they identify with their indigenous heritage. For people who still speak native languages and identify as indigenous, Columbus would indeed be a villain (along with the subsequent conquistadors in each nation). It’s more complicated for mestizos (the majority in most Latin American countries), who are descended from both the conquerors and the conquered. In fact, Dia de la Raza commemorates the creation of the mestizo “race.” But even so, [the conquistadors are often depicted as cultural villains](http://www.delange.org/PresPalace2/Exploitation_of_Mexico_by_Spanish_Conquistadors_Diego_Rivera.jpg) (mural by Diego Rivera). In Panama, coins honor both Balboa, the conqueror (although one who is regarded as having treated the Indians relatively decently), and Urraca, a native chief who led the resistance to the conquest (against Pedrarias’s troops, some of whom were very brutal). ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-villains-in-non-western-countries/779608/31 "2017-02-13T22:39:42Z")
One cultural type of villain in the West is someone with significant power, be that political, economic, social, or whatever. Is that the same elsewhere? ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2017, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-villains-in-non-western-countries/779608/32 "2017-02-15T11:14:06Z")
> [@JustinC](#): > > Nobody in Britain that I know would use George Washington to culturally reference _anything_. Just as William Pitt the Younger would be completely unknown to 99% of Americans, William Pitt the Younger was something of an American hero, and although “the Younger” wouldn’t mean anything to 100% of Americans, most Americans would have heard of Pittsburgh. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2017, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-villains-in-non-western-countries/779608/33 "2017-02-15T11:32:39Z")
Just dropped by to add that, although Australia uses the standard western canon of villains mentioned in the first post, including local criminals and local politicians, one lesser villain who might not get picked in the USA is Douglas MacArthur I don’t mean to say that he’s in the same class as Genghis Khan and Stalin, but every true Australian of a certain age knows that MacArthur was a bit dispicable. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2017, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-villains-in-non-western-countries/779608/34 "2017-02-15T15:35:11Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > So who are the villains in the popular imagination of non-Western countries? In some countries, the great villain is, in fact, America. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2017, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-villains-in-non-western-countries/779608/35 "2017-02-15T18:07:22Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > [Here’s where the French dumped the body of their evil leader Napoleon Bonaparte](http://en.parisinfo.com/var/otcp/sites/images/node_43/node_51/node_77884/node_77888/mus%C3%A9e-de-l'arm%C3%A9e-tombeau-de-napol%C3%A9on-eglise-du-d%C3%B4me-%7C-630x405-%7C-%C2%A9-otcp-dr/15556951-1-fre-FR/Mus%C3%A9e-de-l'Arm%C3%A9e-Tombeau-de-Napol%C3%A9on-Eglise-du-D%C3%B4me-%7C-630x405-%7C-%C2%A9-OTCP-DR.jpg). I hope they showed a little more respect than this for leaders they admired. I feel that I should point out that the sarcophagus may look small in that shot, but in reality, that thing is enormous; I suspect the green base is probably 6’ tall. ---
**Author:** ![HubZilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ccd318/32.png) [@HubZilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HubZilla)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2017, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-villains-in-non-western-countries/779608/36 "2017-02-15T19:51:22Z")
In the Philippines, it’s Ferdinand and Imelda Marcos, except the northern part of Luzon (who keep re-electing her). America is not really a bad guy, despite the [excesses of their occupation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippine%E2%80%93American_War#American_atrocities). The Japanese WW2 occupation is seen as far, far, far worse. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2017, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-villains-in-non-western-countries/779608/37 "2017-02-15T19:59:13Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Well, here in South Africa, I think you’ll find it’s often Westerners… I think the OP was asking, which westerners specifically? There are quite a few historical figures that are identifiable as “villains” in the even among people with with practically no knowledge of the history involved. e.g. Hitler, Stalin, and to a lesser degree Napoleon. Are there non-western equivalents? Would Cecil Rhodes or Clive of India be remembered as villains? ---
**Author:** ![hibernicus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hibernicus/32/2802_2.png) [@hibernicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hibernicus)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2017, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-villains-in-non-western-countries/779608/38 "2017-02-15T21:30:53Z")
> [@Melbourne](#): > > Just dropped by to add that, although Australia uses the standard western canon of villains mentioned in the first post, including local criminals and local politicians, one lesser villain who might not get picked in the USA is > > Douglas MacArthur > > I don’t mean to say that he’s in the same class as Genghis Khan and Stalin, but every true Australian of a certain age knows that MacArthur was a bit dispicable. I wonder if Winston Churchill falls into a similar category: considered a hero in Britain and America for his role in defeating Hitler, but viewed less favourably (insofar as they think of him at all) by the “lesser” peoples he held in such contempt and whose lives he held in such low regard. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2017, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-villains-in-non-western-countries/779608/39 "2017-02-15T23:53:52Z")
> [@hibernicus](#): > > I wonder if Winston Churchill falls into a similar category: considered a hero in Britain and America for his role in defeating Hitler, but viewed less favourably (insofar as they think of him at all) by the “lesser” peoples he held in such contempt and whose lives he held in such low regard. Definitely true in Ireland where is he remembered for sending the Black and Tans (a brutal protestant militia force, and the reason the American cocktail of the same name is frowned upon) into Ireland. ---
**Author:** ![Celyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9dc877/32.png) [@Celyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Celyn)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2017, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-villains-in-non-western-countries/779608/40 "2017-02-16T00:23:11Z")
> [@hibernicus](#): > > … > > In Britain, I would guess Richard III and Guy Fawkes each have a claim on cultural villainhood. Not that I have ever noticed, no. If anyone ever mentions Guy Fawkes, it is quite likely to be followed by some joke like “the only man to enter Parliament with honest intentions”. 🙂 And I don’t know anyone who is bothered about Richard III of England, although his being rediscovered in a car park was vaguely interesting. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-villains-in-non-western-countries/779608.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultural-villains-in-non-western-countries/779608.md?page=3)