# Culture and evolution on Generation Ships **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 17, 2023, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/culture-and-evolution-on-generation-ships/988726 "2023-08-17T15:03:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2023, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/culture-and-evolution-on-generation-ships/988726/81 "2023-08-22T01:07:58Z")
And sometimes the system [comes down on you rather harshly](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orphans_of_the_Sky). ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2023, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/culture-and-evolution-on-generation-ships/988726/82 "2023-08-22T01:11:33Z")
> [@Stanislaus](#): > > I think there might very quickly be problems arising from giving a small and isolated elite the power of life and death over groups of ignorant tribespeople In the hypothetical set up? I don’t see why. Oh _ethical_ problems, but practical ones? No because of informed self interest: The bulk of the pods fill a wide variety overlapping niches, all providing differing required services and products to the greater community. The arrangement needs be that any particular pod, or even two, could be out of commission at a time, with one or more overlapping function pods able to do enough. Redundancy. But too many off line at a time handicaps the whole. The elite pod, controller, brain, lives in the global ecosystem too. The brain wants to keep the two kidneys healthy for its own good. Mutual benefit even if not absolute dependence on any single one. > [@Mangetout](#): > > Sure, but that’s a bit like the way predators always pick off the weak and sickly members of the herd. If you take away the predators, that doesn’t end weakness and sickness. I do not see many of the examples of aggressive societies destroying ones less technologically or militarily advanced as fitting the analogy. Native American cultures were not weak or sickly until colonists made landfall for example. The fear is that different groups of people are always going to be at risk of not being able to play nice together. The thought is akin to keeping kids with their desks a bit apart in a classroom. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2023, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/culture-and-evolution-on-generation-ships/988726/83 "2023-08-22T01:21:07Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Native American cultures were not weak or sickly until colonists made landfall for example. In the case of cultures, we really mean economies. I have no factual info on how e.g. 16th century Europe’s GDP per capita compared to that of Mesoamerica or the Native Americans of the US eastern seaboard. But my guess is that the Europeans had far more vibrant and productive economies. To the degree the purpose of society is to provide goods and services (and employment or the means of sustenance more broadly) to the masses, Europe was doing a better job. Which is another way of saying that the Native Americans culture/economy was weak and sickly by comparison. Again that’s guesswork and I’ll be happy to be shown contrary cites. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2023, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/culture-and-evolution-on-generation-ships/988726/84 "2023-08-22T01:45:04Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Yeah, I think it’s worth considering that what this generation ship would be, is pretty much a prison So is a planet. > [@Al128](#): > > this is why I foresee a very draconian, supressive and autoritarian regime on board … (think: Captain Bligh on the Bounty) … there is no place for opposition, second-guessing and parallel agendas. …And you think that a draconian, authoritarian regime is the way to suppress that? I know of no surer way to generate a Resistance. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2023, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/culture-and-evolution-on-generation-ships/988726/85 "2023-08-22T01:49:48Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > So is a planet. Heck, _this_ planet even has a website dedicated to the idea it’s already a prison planet. Now Alex Jones is really stupid, and very much last year’s news, but he made a lot of money off his ideas. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2023, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/culture-and-evolution-on-generation-ships/988726/86 "2023-08-22T07:14:05Z")
> [@Al128](#): > > this is why I foresee a very draconian, supressive and autoritarian regime on board … (think: Captain Bligh on the Bounty) … there is no place for opposition, second-guessing and parallel agendas. How did that work out for Bligh? (or, indeed anyone involved) ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2023, 7:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/culture-and-evolution-on-generation-ships/988726/87 "2023-08-22T07:49:44Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > I do not see many of the examples of aggressive societies destroying ones less technologically or militarily advanced as fitting the analogy. Native American cultures were not weak or sickly until colonists made landfall for example. Fair enough. I suppose I had the Roman Empire chiefly in mind, partly because it’s an example of a civilisation with developed technology, and partly because it included the sorts of things that might be characterised as mechanisms that are supposed to _prevent_ collapse - laws, military structures, social structures, division of labour, etc ---
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2023, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/culture-and-evolution-on-generation-ships/988726/88 "2023-08-22T08:16:44Z")
One possibility is that a generation ship need not be completely isolated from the outside world. Radio or laser messages could be sent to the vessel while it is on route, from the culture back home in the Solar System. Presumably, Solar System culture would be advanced and energy-rich, otherwise it wouldn’t be able to afford to send generation ships. Small, automated, lightweight vessels could be sent carrying advances in medical technology, fabrication technology and data technology, as well as news and entertainment. If faster, smaller ships carrying people are developed (as seems likely), then there may even be visitors, and there may even be the opportunity to take people off the ship and ferry them to the new world. It is even possible that these smaller, faster ships would have developed a thriving culture at the destination, and they too could contact the ship en route. Or, after a few decades or centuries, there might be complete and utter radio silence, which would be more than somewhat disturbing for the inhabitants of the generation ship. ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2023, 8:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/culture-and-evolution-on-generation-ships/988726/89 "2023-08-22T08:28:29Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > In the hypothetical set up? I don’t see why. Oh _ethical_ problems, but practical ones? No because of informed self interest: > > The bulk of the pods fill a wide variety overlapping niches, all providing differing required services and products to the greater community. The arrangement needs be that any particular pod, or even two, could be out of commission at a time, with one or more overlapping function pods able to do enough. Redundancy. But too many off line at a time handicaps the whole. The elite pod, controller, brain, lives in the global ecosystem too. The brain wants to keep the two kidneys healthy for its own good. Mutual benefit even if not absolute dependence on any single one. We’re talking about a set-up where you have a bunch of separate and isolated communities, who are being deliberately kept in ignorance about the world outside their borders. At the same time you have a group who not only have complete knowledge of the world, but have the power to interfere with, and even destroy, individual communities. When you have an elite entrusted with a noble purpose placed in control of a population being kept deliberately isolated and ignorant, you are opening the door to corruption. Add in that we want this scheme to last for generations, so long that the original ethos will not just be out of living memory but as distant to those on the ship as the Sumerians are to us, and it seems to me utterly impossible that this system could be stable. Call it a priesthood, philosopher-kings, the central party committee, the aristocracy, colonial administrators - whatever the good intentions at the start, by the time this system has been in place for even five generations, the blurring between “What is best for the mission” and “What is best for the oversight pod” will be well advanced. And if a lowly tribespeson complains, is that not rebellion? Heresy? Striking at the heart of all we hold dear? Happily, our Founders of beloved memory gave us clear instructions on how to handle pods that have become toxic. Eventually you either get a revolution that overthrows the system, or it’s put down with such force that the system is irretrievably broken. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2023, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/culture-and-evolution-on-generation-ships/988726/90 "2023-08-22T12:22:15Z")
> [@Al128](#): > > I’d really draw the analogy to a historic war-ship etc… a highly vertical power structure, _“this is your place, this is your job, and no - nobody asks you if you really feel like storming up hamburger-hill today or not”_. Except, if it’s that oppressive, you’re likely going to cause the very problem you’re trying to prevent. Strict discipline on a old time sailing ship was hard to maintain, even just for a few months, and even then, it was alleviated by periods of freedom when they made it into port. And even then, we have famous examples of mutineers saying enough is enough. Hell, we developed an entire pirate culture around pissed off sailors deciding that “Captain = God” was an awful way to run a ship. ---
**Author:** ![Al128](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/al128/32/16541_2.png) [@Al128](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Al128)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2023, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/culture-and-evolution-on-generation-ships/988726/91 "2023-08-22T12:54:06Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > How did that work out for Bligh? (or, indeed anyone involved) the Bounty example just goes to show that it worked for 10s of 1000s of captains for 100s of years … and that is the point of the whole “policy” . come down excessively hard on the 1 or 2 troublemakers (whipping them to shreds in front of all) to keep the silent mayority at bay …, especially in a scenario where “flight” (as in fight-or-flight) is not an option (high-sea or interstellar space). Might not make for a happy crowd, but they will carry on and will make the ship go places … It’s a hard case to make that this policy was not successfull thrughout history _in these circumstances_… being the Bounty a footnote-anecdote. … and interestingly enough, all those different cultures (Brits, French, Spaniards, probably even Japan and China) gravitated to the same model at high-sea … (sorry, no voting for “where will we go next” ) ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2023, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/culture-and-evolution-on-generation-ships/988726/92 "2023-08-22T13:39:15Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > ISTM that in human history the most typical way for societies to end has been by the hand of others: tribes of humans destroying each other at various scales. Sure on occasion a group has been small enough and on a narrow enough resource base that climate changes or such destroy them, but not typically. I believe that more than one large group with what appeared to be a large resource base is now thought to have been destroyed by climate changes and/or outrunning that resource base. > [@LSLGuy](#): > > my guess is that the Europeans had far more vibrant and productive economies. To the degree the purpose of society is to provide goods and services (and employment or the means of sustenance more broadly) to the masses, Europe was doing a better job. Which is another way of saying that the Native Americans culture/economy was weak and sickly by comparison. The Native Americans were taller and healthier because they were eating better. Which I think indicates that Europe was doing a significantly worse job. > [@Mangetout](#): > > I suppose I had the Roman Empire chiefly in mind, partly because it’s an example of a civilisation with developed technology, and partly because it included the sorts of things that might be characterised as mechanisms that are supposed to _prevent_ collapse - laws, military structures, social structures, division of labour, etc And, of course, it collapsed. (I’m not sure whether that was your point.) > [@Al128](#): > > It’s a hard case to make that this policy was not successfull thrughout history _in these circumstances_… being the Bounty a footnote-anecdote. The Bounty was hardly the only mutiny at sea. It’s just the one that most of us have heard of. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2023, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/culture-and-evolution-on-generation-ships/988726/93 "2023-08-22T13:43:26Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > And, of course, it collapsed. (I’m not sure whether that was your point.) That was the point - it collapsed, and the collapse was in the form of adjacent cultures just absorbing the space, but in the absence of those adjacent cultures, it was still in a state of collapse. Maybe difficult to judge because some of the collapse was because of the way the Roman Empire was at war with adjacent cultures. But the point was: I don’t think there is a clear example of a culture that could come close to a guarantee of lasting tens of thousands of years. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2023, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/culture-and-evolution-on-generation-ships/988726/94 "2023-08-22T13:43:53Z")
> [@Stanislaus](#): > > you are opening the door to corruption. To what end? Who corrupts them with what? Their survival depends on the whole ship working in all its parts as optimally as possible. Could they increase their own food rations? Sure. Have nicer stuff while others are less comfortable? Maybe. But there is no utility to additional status and they can only eat so much. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2023, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/culture-and-evolution-on-generation-ships/988726/95 "2023-08-22T13:45:00Z")
> [@Al128](#): > > the Bounty example just goes to show that it worked for 10s of 1000s of captains for 100s of years … and that is the point of the whole “policy” . OK, sort of a weird example to pick then. ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2023, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/culture-and-evolution-on-generation-ships/988726/96 "2023-08-22T14:12:19Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > To what end? Who corrupts them with what? They corrupt themselves as they gradually use their power for their own ends. Like every elite ever. > [@DSeid](#): > > Their survival depends on the whole ship working in all its parts as optimally as possible. Could they increase their own food rations? Sure. Have nicer stuff while others are less comfortable? Maybe. But there is no utility to additional status and they can only eat so much. There is no utility to additional status? He repeated incredulously. I admire your personal asceticism of course, but does this really seem to you like a worldview common in human societies? Even you do an incredible job of inculcating this selfless vision in the first generation it will not and cannot last. We have tried this before. How long did it take the Catholic Church to go from humble shepherds of God wisely steering their flocks towards salvation to Alexander VI buying the papacy so he could have orgies in the luxury palace that went with the job? People given power use it to their own ends. They will do this in ways that are not particularly enlightened. It was not, in fact, in the interests of the French aristocracy to exploit the peasantry so thoroughly. Their survival depended on the whole country working in all its parts as optimally as possible. And yet… ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2023, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/culture-and-evolution-on-generation-ships/988726/97 "2023-08-22T14:21:47Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > But the point was: I don’t think there is a clear example of a culture that could come close to a guarantee of lasting tens of thousands of years. Oh, yeah. I agree with that. > [@DSeid](#): > > there is no utility to additional status Humans often want additional status even when the only utility it appears to carry is the status itself. And for humans to ignore the needs of those who are producing what they need is very common; even when the long-term results of this are damaging for everybody, elites included. > [@Stanislaus](#): > > People given power use it to their own ends. They will do this in ways that are not particularly enlightened. Exactly. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2023, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/culture-and-evolution-on-generation-ships/988726/98 "2023-08-22T15:30:51Z")
If we had a reliable way to gauge selfishness in children growing up and routinely killed the top 10% most selfish / unempathetic 4- or 5-yos as they showed their true colors we might be able to have a more stable and less corruption prone shipboard society. They might also have to enact a lot of other “defect” culling given the smallish population size and the extended number of generations trapped in that bottleneck. “Needs of the many” and all that eugenics-adjacent stuff. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2023, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/culture-and-evolution-on-generation-ships/988726/99 "2023-08-22T18:36:53Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > If we had a reliable way to gauge selfishness in children growing up and routinely killed the top 10% most selfish / unempathetic 4- or 5-yos as they showed their true colors we might be able to have a more stable and less corruption prone shipboard society. Even more likely to have a rebellion, however. The 4 year olds won’t be able to mount one; but the parents – including those who raise every child whatsoever for those first four or five years while wondering if the child will be killed – are probably going to do so. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2023, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/culture-and-evolution-on-generation-ships/988726/100 "2023-08-22T19:08:20Z")
Clearly there’d have to be societal buy-in that it was a good idea. On Earth now there are cultures that practice selective infanticide. They buy into that making sense. It doesn’t to you and me, but we’re not them. Even in the so-called civilized part where you and I do live, some people abort Down syndrome fetuses while others are aghast at the very idea and carry theirs to term and then support them throughout life. It’s all a matter of degree. An ark-based society must be a lot more “good of the many” than the near-limit case of personal selfishness that’s popular in our country right now with so many people. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/culture-and-evolution-on-generation-ships/988726.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/culture-and-evolution-on-generation-ships/988726.md?page=6)